Shocks at New Mexico

[Cdizzle]

We never would have gotten Gregg without some of the failures before him.

Did we fire Ralph Miller to get Marshall? This argument makes zero sense.

[SHOXAAC]

Did we fire Ralph Miller to get Marshall? This argument makes zero sense.

I was assuming a Big Chief tablet and crayons weren't needed. Cohen, Thompson, Smithson followed thankfully by Turg, then of course Gregg. It's like the old adage "kissing a few frogs before you get the prince." We aren't guarenteed success the first time around after Gene, but the trend line with Gene wasn't going to be better than what we have. Suckage is suckage.

[Cdizzle]

I was assuming a Big Chief tablet and crayons weren't needed. Cohen, Thompson, Smithson followed thankfully by Turg, then of course Gregg. It's like the old adage "kissing a few frogs before you get the prince." We aren't guarenteed success the first time around after Gene, but the trend line with Gene wasn't going to be better than what we have. Suckage is suckage.

You're missing my point. The point was WSU didn't choose to remove Miller. They did choose to remove Stephenson. So drawing the frogs comparison isn't valid at all. We already had the king.

[SHOXAAC]

You're missing my point. The point was WSU didn't choose to remove Miller. They did choose to remove Stephenson. So drawing the frogs comparison isn't valid at all. We already had the king.

You are the one that brought up Miller, going back to an era many moons ago. Your missing my simple point. Stephenson needed to be fired...period. Yes, he built and gave us a nationally relevant baseball program in Wichita, Kansas. However, he was a victim of the game going by him at warp speed and he couldn't compete anymore. We all were sick about it and gave him ample time to regroup. He just didn't have it in him. Remember the definition of insanity... doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. We sucked for a few years prior to Gene being let go. It's time to move in a different direction. Unfortunately, we aren't guarenteed immediate success when the change is made. Butler appears to be a Cohen, Thompson or Randy. But rest assured, this University, this program and this community will persevere in the end. Your plan was to march down insanity avenue. Have a nice trip.

[KC Shox]

I saw Mean Gene picking out TP at Costco a few months ago. He asked my opinion on the house brand product. I'm guessing he was looking for a cost-effective manner in which to decorate Sexton's house on a night shortly thereafter.

The initial two sentences in the above are actually true, believe it or not. Serious as death.

Did you tell him TP is so yesterday. Those flushable wipes are two thumbs up - especially the Cottonelle brand.

[ShockTalk]

I read Hooper's wife and kids are staying in Wichita, and he plans to spend 10 days a month here.

Just sayin'.

This thing has turned into an embarrassment. Top to bottom, those eager to get rid of Stephenson are probably getting what they asked for. Pretty difficult to argue at this point that Gene Stephenson was and is WSU baseball.

Eager was not part of it. Over Gene's last 5 years, WSU was not anywhere close to what they should have been given his college baseball status and the backing of baseball in Wichita. A little more leg work by him and his staff should have kept WSU the walking dog in the Valley at a minimum unless you can come up with several good reasons why that was too much to ask.

I couldn't agree more. Gene was, is, and always will be, WSU baseball. Those that wanted Gene gone, don't know baseball. He built Shocker baseball from nothing and should have been allowed to coach this team as long as he wanted to. Stephenson was the heart and soul of this program and the way that he was run out was unacceptable. I think this is just a bit of Karma coming back to bite us now.

Thank you Mr. KnowItAllAboutBaseball. So the Top 10 salary he was drawing was justifiable to you. Let's just throw half a mill down the toilet for the next 10 years, get maybe another Valley title, and have no at large teams. Really? He said he would have taken less money, but that was after the fact and I certainly would not have bet on it. And let's not get into "unacceptable" actions while Gene had several of his own. What has bit us was his handling and comments of the beanball incident, his fling with OU saying he had done all he could at WSU (thank you for your loyalty coach), and hiring him back with staff intact and giving him a sweeter deal so he could sit back in his rocking chair and not bust his butt on the recruiting trail. Aren't you at least a little curious why he didn't get any other offers to coach when he said he still wanted to coach and have the opportunity to stick it in our face?

No, but it means Hooper could have been hired to replace him and Stephenson could have retired and we wouldn't have had to buy out his contract. Poor decision to fire him the way it happened and an even worse decision not to allow him to help choose his successor.

This was discussed a lot and by me several times. Hooper would have been a great replacement for Thomas as a coach in waiting. He could have learned more about college recruiting and he would have had that fire in his belly to succeed. I believe he also would be great coach for hitting, fielding, and running the base paths. However, Gene was to loyal to his high paid staff and would not have replaced Thomas. I believe Gene said as much.

I also wonder if Gene had not been let go and a review by the athletic department turned up the "clothing incident". That could have saved WSU the buy out. Or do you believe we should have just given him a raise for continuing to finish in the top half of the Valley?

[Ashockalypse]

I was assuming a Big Chief tablet and crayons weren't needed. Cohen, Thompson, Smithson followed thankfully by Turg, then of course Gregg. It's like the old adage "kissing a few frogs before you get the prince." We aren't guarenteed success the first time around after Gene, but the trend line with Gene wasn't going to be better than what we have. Suckage is suckage.

No, you are quite wrong. We suck way more now.

[shockerfanmas]

Gene had one year left on his contract. He absolutely should have been allowed to coach that last season. No doubt in my mind we'd be in a better place now than we are with Butler. Yes, it was going downhill with Gene, but Butler has managed to at least turn it into a dumpster fire in his time here.

At least we were still competitive under Gene. This is just sickening to watch. I mean seriously? I'd much rather this team struggle to a 4 seed in a regional than what we have now. Firing Gene was an absolutely stupid decision by an absolutely stupid, moronic AD that has absolutely no clue. And to hire Butler? Pathetic.

[DUShock]

I don't know that firing Gene was the wrong call.
I have not forgot the e-mails going around between boosters with multiple photos of drunken Gene partaking in adult shenanigans.
What about the highly documented PFS?
Who knows how much more is/was out there.
I gave up my season tickets because of the on and off the field performance. I did, and do, attend games but no longer as a season ticket holder.

I am one who said that HCTB had 2-3 years to right the ship. I am disappointed in the progress and can honestly say that I am on a negative/downward trend for the baseball program. I hope things change.

Go Shocks!

[KC Shox]

Hindsight is 20/20 and Coach Butler's tenure with the Shox has been abysmal. It's pretty clear this year will once again disappoint us all, so there's no point for us to sound like a broken record of complaints. We've been doing that for years now to no avail.

I'm just going to sit back the rest of the way and let the chips fall. I'll continue to hope for the best but temper my expectations until a new infusion of a whole helluva lot is made with this program.

[ShockTalk]

Gene had one year left on his contract. He absolutely should have been allowed to coach that last season. No doubt in my mind we'd be in a better place now than we are with Butler. Yes, it was going downhill with Gene, but Butler has managed to at least turn it into a dumpster fire in his time here.

At least we were still competitive under Gene. This is just sickening to watch. I mean seriously? I'd much rather this team struggle to a 4 seed in a regional than what we have now. Firing Gene was an absolutely stupid decision by an absolutely stupid, moronic AD that has absolutely no clue. And to hire Butler? Pathetic.

With no reply to @DUShock:'s post, I'm assuming you condone Gene's off the field behavior and it should not have any bearing to being a coach and representative of WSU. That it was documented that other coaches mentioned that they no longer were seeing Gene or his staff on the recruiting trails as they had before. That he was earning the high salary he was being paid. Yes?

Frankly, I see Gene being the one making absolutely stupid, moronic decisions, particularly in his personal life. Not to mention that he was doing all this after WSU took him back. After the OU fling, I was of the opinion we no longer "owed" Gene. The slate was clean and he should be judged as any other new coach would be at the level he was being paid. I, and others, had real concerns that he would do the things necessary to keep WSU at the top of the Valley and a at-large level team. That he and his staff would have to work harder than before to see that we would maintain that level. Instead, I believe they worked less, plus you had Gene's baggage. Pathetic indeed.

Add: I also feel, that if Gene had not come back to WSU, our baseball program would probably be in better shape than it is today.

[1972Shocker]

I don't see any benefit to rehashing the arguments about Gene's firing. Regardless of how you feel about that it is not even in the rear view mirror at this point.

Hiring Coach Butler may prove to be a mistake. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for his 1st two years, especially last year considering the injuries we had. However, we should be showing significant improvement at this point and obviously that is not the case.

I will point out that Shocker pitching isn't exactly setting the world on fire either and the primary driver there in Coach Kemnitz is still in place. Although it's possible HCTB has set the tone to look for hard throwers as opposed to look for pitchers when recruiting.

Nothing wrong with recruiting big, strong athletes if you have the ability to develop them into big, strong baseball players. So far that part of the equation seems to be missing.

If hiring Todd Butler proves to be a mistake the bigger mistake was giving him such a long-term sweetheart deal without earning it. This makes it much more difficult and expensive to correct the hiring mistake. ADES did the same thing with Jody Adams although at least she had some on the court success in a minor sport in a conference ranked in the bottom half nationally in that sport. It's one thing to treat Gregg Marshall like a king. He had, in fact, become the king.

I have no problem with these coaches making whatever the market will bear but pay them a good but reasonable base salary and then shower them with incentive performance bonuses tying the big money to success on and off the court and then make sure you have a backdoor to exit the contract in the event the Coach is a flop or otherwise is not a good fit or is not performing in an acceptable fashion.

The bottom line is how much of a buy-out is WSU willing to absorb for baseball. HCTB will have 4 years remaining on his contract after this season. He is currently receiving a base salary of at least $320,000 and is schedule to receive a $20,000 per year increase in June 2017. I figure his buyout after this season is at least $1,340,000. Not sure what Kemnitz' contract provides.

The stated reason for bypassing Kevin Hooper was he did not have collegiate coaching and recruiting experience. Some have suggested that it was because they wanted to totally break ties with the Stephenson regime. However, if that was the case why did they keep Kemnitz. (BTW, I think it was Kemnitz who was really pushing Gene to take the OU job, not that Gene isn't his own man).

The thing is Hoop was a proven winner and it's not like he was being handed players on a silver platter by an MLB organization. It is arguable that HCTB had proven himself as a winner at least where he was the man in charge although he had a reputation as a strong recruiter.

In any case, we are where we are and right now that is not a good place. I think Gene's buyout was in the neighborhood of $750,000. I am not sure what the appetite and/or ability WSU (or its major baseball boosters) has for another big buyout 3 years later. I guess a lot depends on how the evaluate the lost revenue opportunity cost going forward.

I really hope that HCTB and PCBK can get this turned around but that seems like it is just wishful thinking on my part at this point.

[ShockTalk]

My apologies @1972Shocker:. Thank you for taking the high road. Unfortunately, after reading some of the posts, my inner @ShockerFever: came out. :wink-new: I just couldn't leave it alone. :p

[Cdizzle]

My apologies @1972Shocker. Thank you for taking the high road. Unfortunately, after reading some of the posts, my inner @ShockerFever came out. :wink-new: I just couldn't leave it alone. :p

Agreed. I suppose we should all just move on.

At this point, I guess for this season I hope the Shox either turn it around so big they win the league and make the tourney, or tank so hard the new AD is forced to make a change.

It would be a little easier to handle this well if it was just the talent disparity on display (which is plenty depressing in and of itself), but the utter lack of understanding of the game of baseball displayed on the field is really difficult to stomach.

[1972Shocker]

My apologies @1972Shocker. Thank you for taking the high road. Unfortunately, after reading some of the posts, my inner @ShockerFever came out. :wink-new: I just couldn't leave it alone. :p

I don't think any apologies are necessary from anyone. Believe me I understand the frustration. Surely the coaches and players are just as frustrated as the fans. However, the coaches and the players are the only ones that can really do much about the situation in the near term.