Keep the Faith

[1972Shocker]

the main thing that happened is many football schools starting pouring more money into baseball. The whole landscape of college baseball is a lot different today than it was in the 1980s and early 1990s.

This.

[1972Shocker]

Gene took the Shocks to two super regionals AFTER he made that statement. I am not saying that Gene didn't slow down some after that, but he certainly had the team one game away from Omaha twice AFTER making that statement.

Actually the Shocks were 1 game away once. In 2008 after beating Florida State 10-7 in game 1 the Shocks dropped the next 2 games 4-14 and 4-11.

While the year before we went 0-2 against Cal Irvine although we were more competitive losing those games 0-1 and 2-3. So you could argue we were actually closer to making it back to Omaha in 2007 than when we won the 1st game against FSU in 2008.

[OregonShocker]

I disagree. Gene took the Shocks to two super regionals AFTER he made that statement. I am not saying that Gene didn't slow down some after that, but he certainly had the team one game away from Omaha twice AFTER making that statement. I think Gene did slow down some (who wouldn't at 65), but the main thing that happened is many football schools starting pouring more money into baseball. The whole landscape of college baseball is a lot different today than it was in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Ok. Still, the question begged is whether our expectations for returning to "days of old", recurrent CWS trips, etc. are possible in this new landscape. Are we holding HCTB to unrealistic standards; did we expect too much from HCGS? I'm still entertained with the team (always be a fan!) but I'm afraid the "old days" are just that...

[KC Shox]

It wasn't that long ago (or was it) when guys like Damon Sublett, Derek Schermerhorn, Josh Workman, Andy Dirks, Matt Brown, Conor Gillaspie, Noah Boothe, Aaron Shafer, Charlie Lowell, Clint McKeever, to name a few were all 'bulldogs' in the field. Those cats played with attitude, like the boys from the 80s and 90s, you could see them get visibly pissed off, play with a chip on their shoulder and I liked it. In fact, it seemed the entire team were 'bulldogs' with the occasional eccentric/atypical player sprinkled in (David Sanders).

However, it seems every year, the roster has less and less of these types of players. It's not like the majority of these guys were high MLB draft pick type players, so what gives? Why in the world can't we find these guys anymore? Are today's players vastly different than those guys? Are the Derek Schermerhorns of the world the exception rather than the rule?

Is it too much to ask to have a team with a bunch of Mike Lansings on it?

[Kung Wu]

Are we holding HCTB to unrealistic standards; did we expect too much from HCGS?

That's easy. No and no.

WSU has demonstrated in the past that fan support is there if we meet the expectation. WSU has demonstrated that they will reward the coaches on par with anybody in the country so long as they are getting results. Now it's just a matter of getting the right coach in place.

[ShockTalk]

Ok. Still, the question begged is whether our expectations for returning to "days of old", recurrent CWS trips, etc. are possible in this new landscape. Are we holding HCTB to unrealistic standards; did we expect too much from HCGS? I'm still entertained with the team (always be a fan!) but I'm afraid the "old days" are just that...

My first standard, just like it was for Gene, is being #1 in the MVC. In Gene's last 5 years we tied for 1st once, were 2nd twice, and 3rd twice. For me, that clock starts in Butler's 3rd year.

[Veritas]

As WSU's head coach, HCTB is currently 0-5 against KU and KSU. He can start by beating those two programs.

[ShockTalk]

As WSU's head coach, HCTB is currently 0-5 against KU and KSU. He can start by beating those two programs.

Gene was 0-6 in his last year and 6-15 over his last 5 years. If not for winning all 4 games in 2012 (2 in extra innings), he was 2-15 the other 4 years.

[1972Shocker]

The landscape of college baseball has changed substantially since the mid-90's and I think it was/is unreasonable to expect either Gene or Todd to have the success that Gene had during his 1st 18 years. Not sure what we should expect but it is obviously more than the last 7 or 8 years have produced.

I think we'll know we have an acceptable product when we see it. Right now we ain't seeing it. I really like Coach Butler and I hope he can get things turned around over the next couple of years. If not than it's back to the drawing board.

Personally, I hope the heavy recruiting out of the Juco ranks last year proves to be an outlier and that HCTB builds this program with high school recruits to the greatest degree possible going forward.

[Veritas]

Gene was 0-6 in his last year and 6-15 over his last 5 years. If not for winning all 4 games in 2012 (2 in extra innings), he was 2-15 the other 4 years.

... And FHCGS was fired! What's your point?
You don't really want to compare TB with GS do you?

[ShockTalk]

... And FHCGS was fired! What's your point?
You don't really want to compare TB with GS do you?

Nope. Long term, very, very few come close to stacking up with Gene. Just giving a little perspective.

While I didn't expect much from HCTB in his first two years, I did think it would be better than it is right now, but some of that thinking may have come from the hype of his recruiting class. All we can do now is pull for the team and players by supporting their coach. Nothing on whose coaching is going to change until at least 2 years from now, maybe a year longer. What's done is done.

[OregonShocker]

While I didn't expect much from HCTB in his first two years, I did think it would be better than it is right now, but some of that thinking may have come from the hype of his recruiting class. All we can do now is pull for the team and players by supporting their coach. Nothing on whose coaching is going to change until at least 2 years from now, maybe a year longer. What's done is done.

I agree with this. I think the reason for the change was because we expected more from HCGS and HCTB was to provide this. I expected more from HCTB than where we're at now. I'm just internalizing whether the problem is with him or with my expectations. For now, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and tempering my expectations somewhat.

[SB Shock]

I disagree. Gene took the Shocks to two super regionals AFTER he made that statement. I am not saying that Gene didn't slow down some after that, but he certainly had the team one game away from Omaha twice AFTER making that statement. I think Gene did slow down some (who wouldn't at 65), but the main thing that happened is many football schools starting pouring more money into baseball. The whole landscape of college baseball is a lot different today than it was in the 1980s and early 1990s.

2007 and 2008 - with basically the players he had on the team at the time he went to OU. He never recruited a team that even had the talent to win a regional after that (or even sniff a super regional). Maybe your football argument is legitimate if WSU was still dominating the MVC, but after 2008 season it was all down hill on the field, off the field, with the NCAA and with the quality of play. But there was a slow decline in this program and it started in '98 after the Christenson incident.

I have no idea if Butler will get it done - sure hope he does, and if not they will hire somebody else. But Gene isn't the answer - if he was he would be employed by somebody else, laughing at Sexton. But as Gene was fond of saying "maybe the game has passed me by" - it became true, and it all started on that day he went to OU and said he couldn't win at WSU.

[DUShock]

@SB Shock: those damn self-fulfilling prophecies.

[tru2thaduce]

With Schwanke and Tewes this team would be dangerous right now.Im not going to be quick to judge based on this season.Tough circumstances for any coach.