Keep the Faith

[Shock Top]

I have a feeling HCTB can get it done.

With the success of the basketball program and with the past success of the baseball program (last CWS was still in 96), I think we are all quick to jump the gun.

Butler is still in the process of getting his players into the program. Remember, it took HCGM two full seasons before finally taking off in his third. If he can put together another great recruiting class or two, things will look up.

Baseball is a different beast then basketball too. I'm sure we can all agree the program was pretty stagnant the last few Gene years. So much like Marshall, Butler didn't exactly inherit a perfect situation.

Look I'm frustrated and want to win as much as the rest of Shocker fans, but I think it's a little soon to throw in the towl.

Look at the KC Royals. People were ready to fire GMDM and start all over, but he had a vision and built the roster the best way he believe it could win. As you may remember, they made it to the WS.

Have faith Shocker Nation! (Feel free to fire away now ;))

[shockfan89_]

I will take the first shot...

It looks like we have 16 signed for next season. We have 2 SRs and 14 JRs on the roster but I can't see many of the JRs getting drafted based on what I have seen so far. Say we have 3 JRs sign. That leaves us 12 over the limit. Maybe 2 or 3 incoming FR are drafted and sign? That still leaves us 10 over the limit so we will need to run off 10 that are on the current roster. We also have 7 FR that haven't played this year and may be red-shirting? And this all assumes we have 5 or 6 drafted that sign.

Either way this doesn't seem to be a pretty picture for future recruiting.

[Veritas]

Has there been ANYTHING in the past two seasons that indicates HCTB is going to be a winner?
He had the #2 recruiting class and they suck on the field.
This guy is mediocre at best up until now. His HC record is boringly average.
Face it... where is the silver lining?

Shocker Baseball as many of us knew and loved is dead.

It saddens me.

[vancedave56]

It takes time. Having 2 top starting pitchers out for the season doesn't help.

[shockfan89_]

I posted this a week ago. It is still pretty valid as we are now 8-10 without them.

It is no doubt a rough hand to be dealt, but we also need to look at the facts. We were 5-9 in games those three pitched in and 6-7 now without them. Obviously it is a huge hit to our pitching depth (which we saw today) but it looks like Isaac Anderson is back and pitching well. Let's hope he can move into the Friday night spot soon.

[1972Shocker]

I have a feeling HCTB can get it done.

Have faith Shocker Nation! (Feel free to fire away now ;))

I think your take is very reasonable. Perhaps you are allowing your Shocker fandom to tint your glasses slightly yellow but that is okay. In fact, that is probably the way it should be. Not sure I can say I have total faith in HCTB but he at least deserves 4 years to see what he can do.

Last year was pretty much the last remnants of Gene's players. It was a very experienced group of guys with one great player who, BTW, had his best year of his 3-year career under HCTB. Now whether HCTB had anything to do with that is debatable. He basically started this year from scratch because we had next to nothing in place behind that large group of seniors and drafted juniors that left the program after last season.

I would say I am guardedly optimistic that HCTB can get us moving back in the right direction. I am certainly not ready to give up on Shocker baseball yet. Of course, I am not sure what it would take for me to give up on any Shocker program.

[Play Angry]

I think your take is very reasonable. Perhaps you are allowing your Shocker fandom to tint your glasses slightly yellow but that is okay. In fact, that is probably the way it should be. Not sure I can say I have total faith in HCTB but he at least deserves 4 years to see what he can do.

Last year was pretty much the last remnants of Gene's players. It was a very experienced group of guys with one great player who, BTW, had his best year of his 3-year career under HCTB. Now whether HCTB had anything to do with that is debatable. He basically started this year from scratch because we had next to nothing in place behind that large group of seniors and drafted juniors that left the program after last season.

I would say I am guardedly optimistic that HCTB can get us moving back in the right direction. I am certainly not ready to give up on Shocker baseball yet. Of course, I am not sure what it would take for me to give up on any Shocker program.

This is a very reasonable take.

[shockfan89_]

I would say Arens, Mucha, Kirk, Kihle, and Dearman are the last of Gene's players. It is concerning to me that we felt the talent under Gene had fallen enough that we needed to take the program in a different direction and most of these guys were not significant contributors then but they are now. I would have assumed the 2nd best recruiting class in the country would have displaced this group (especially given most were JuCo guys) but in reality almost all of these guys have been in the line-up every day.

I like HCTB and want him to succeed but I think next year there has to be some sign of improvement. So far we see glimpses of hope that are quickly dashed. We have questions on recruiting, pitching, pitch calling, fielding, baseball IQ, over recruiting, plate discipline (strike outs), and some questionable lineups/substitutions (L on L DH). We are now playing people wherever we can to get bats in the lineup (guys listed as IF playing RF, OF playing 3B) which has been somewhat successful but also a little concerning.

I think it will be interesting to see if this group finishes the year strong and who is around next year (this group of JRs, the FR that haven't seen any playing time this year, or the 16 that we have signed). I still have hope for HCTB but a lot of questions remain to be answered.

[Kung Wu]

There is still bitterness and resentment among some of the players about Gene getting let go and the Under Armour debacle. Until 100% of that simmering attitude is turned over, HCTB is having to deal with a mildly toxic situation on top of getting his own recruits bought into his system. The ONLY thing that can rectify that toxicity is either time (letting the students graduate) or simply replacing the entire crew of kids recruited by Gene. He chose the former, which is the only right thing to do in my opinion. But that means it will take a bit more time to see if HCTB can meet the appropriately high expectation placed on him.

[Cdizzle]

There is still bitterness and resentment among some of the players about Gene getting let go and the Under Armour debacle. Until 100% of that simmering attitude is turned over, HCTB is having to deal with a mildly toxic situation on top of getting his own recruits bought into his system. The ONLY thing that can rectify that toxicity is either time (letting the students graduate) or simply replacing the entire crew of kids recruited by Gene. He chose the former, which is the only right thing to do in my opinion. But that means it will take a bit more time to see if HCTB can meet the appropriately high expectation placed on him.

Supposing that is true, what does it say that the holdover players are generally the best on the team, even though they aren't 'buying in' and are handicapped playing with so much resentment?

[OregonShocker]

Shocker Baseball as many of us knew and loved is dead.

It saddens me.

Unfortunately, I feel that happened years ago when HCGS stated he had taken the Shoxs as far as he thought he could. Saw them play Uof Oregon out here a few years ago; team still played hard, but didn't have quite the talent of years past. Did Gene change recruiting strategy? Who knows, except maybe Brent. Now supposedly we have better recruiting but not as strong of an effort, and similar disappointing results. I haven't given up, but I haven't had the fire re-lit yet either. Is that the modern times, or a sign of the coach? I'm not sure.

[OregonShocker]

Also, to be fair, the teams that passed us unexpectedly (Nebraska, KU, KSU, etc.) aren't exactly world beaters anymore. Dust in the modern times seems to be settling. We've fallen to middle of the pack. Not sure what it would take to become dominant vs. ASU, Calif schools, etc.

[ShockTalk]

There is still bitterness and resentment among some of the players about Gene getting let go and the Under Armour debacle. Until 100% of that simmering attitude is turned over, HCTB is having to deal with a mildly toxic situation on top of getting his own recruits bought into his system. The ONLY thing that can rectify that toxicity is either time (letting the students graduate) or simply replacing the entire crew of kids recruited by Gene. He chose the former, which is the only right thing to do in my opinion. But that means it will take a bit more time to see if HCTB can meet the appropriately high expectation placed on him.

Not sure I agree with all this. First, the Under Armour debacle started under Gene's watch. Butler simply found what was going on. Had Gene still been here today, it might still be going on. If you think the NCAA was harsh, it would have been much worse had it continued to go on for more years.

Second, I don't believe the remaining Gene players are creating a toxic situation. More than likely, the few still here are the ones that have moved on with the situation and have accepted it.

Supposing that is true, what does it say that the holdover players are generally the best on the team, even though they aren't 'buying in' and are handicapped playing with so much resentment?

The holdover players may be some of the best performers on the team because they have the most D-I experience.

[Kung Wu]

Second, I don't believe the remaining Gene players are creating a toxic situation. More than likely, the few still here are the ones that have moved on with the situation and have accepted it.

I didn't say "all" of Gene's recruits. You are correct about the Under Armor incident. The way I worded it, it sounded like they are still bitter about that. I didn't intend for it to come out that way.

The Under Armor incident does not reflect on HCTB at all. But he still had to deal with a handful of jaded players that _didn't get to play_ because of it. That's toxic. They have turned over now, but he still had to deal with it, and the attitude and disgruntlement that came along with it (and the attitude that may have spilled over to the underclassmen).

The Gene issue doesn't reflect on HCTB other than his ability to win them over. It takes a _very_ special type of coach to pull that off, and it almost never happens. So he gets a pass on that -- for awhile.

That's two toxic situations he has had to deal with in the past two years and neither one of them can be taken lightly.

Any experienced employer knows a single employee can poison the group (but not necessarily _will_). If there is even one left, it _can_ be (but not necessarily _is_) detrimental. We know there are no longer suspended Under Armor players, but there could still be some "they booted Gene" haters.

Regardless, it's very difficult to accomplish anything when you have a bunch of jaded players on your team -- much less get them to buy into a new system. Maybe that process is finally happening right now and we have to go through the growing pains? Maybe we have only turned the corner in terms of attitude just now, and it's only now when the senior guys are willing to buy-in? That's two years of potentially laggard development on their part. And there's no guarantee that there aren't _still_ guys in the simmering bad attitude camp (though I suspect they may have all turned over).

[shox1989]

Unfortunately, I feel that happened years ago when HCGS stated he had taken the Shoxs as far as he thought he could. Saw them play Uof Oregon out here a few years ago; team still played hard, but didn't have quite the talent of years past. Did Gene change recruiting strategy? Who knows, except maybe Brent. Now supposedly we have better recruiting but not as strong of an effort, and similar disappointing results. I haven't given up, but I haven't had the fire re-lit yet either. Is that the modern times, or a sign of the coach? I'm not sure.

I disagree. Gene took the Shocks to two super regionals AFTER he made that statement. I am not saying that Gene didn't slow down some after that, but he certainly had the team one game away from Omaha twice AFTER making that statement. I think Gene did slow down some (who wouldn't at 65), but the main thing that happened is many football schools starting pouring more money into baseball. The whole landscape of college baseball is a lot different today than it was in the 1980s and early 1990s.