Gm 52 - vs DBU (3 of 3)

[SB Shock]

No. Marshall started from scratch.

LOL

Marshall had Cousinard, Braeuer, Mekel, Durley, Clemente, Hatch, Ellis his first year - That is starting with nothing.

[Veritas]

LOL

Marshall had Cousinard, Braeuer, Mekel, Durley, Clemente, Hatch, Ellis his first year - That is starting with nothing.

... And no bench. Are you really arguing that Butler's first WSU team can be compared to Marshall's first team? I don't recall Marshall's first team ranked preseason #1
Sounds to me like a lot of those shouting for change last season are starting to spin.
I think Gene would have done better with this team, and certainly Hooper would have done better. Now we are hearing it might take 3-4 years.

[ShockTalk]

... And no bench. Are you really arguing that Butler's first WSU team can be compared to Marshall's first team? I don't recall Marshall's first team ranked preseason #1
Sounds to me like a lot of those shouting for change last season are starting to spin.
I think Gene would have done better with this team, and certainly Hooper would have done better. Now we are hearing it might take 3-4 years.

Now you're starting to spin, @Veritas:. No one knows what Hooper would have done this season and I was a Hooper booster. Yep, Gene might have done better. His recruits. They'd probably still be getting "specials" from the Under Armour catalogue, too.

Very few here believed that #1 pre-season rank and there was little to support it. Before the season started, many also thought it would not turn around in just a year or two either.

This Gene, Hooper, Butler talk doesn't really matter anyway. What's done is done. Get over it. Support the team or find something else. A new coach deserves time to get his own players into the program.

Several players have improved this year. Several have gone down hill. A few others, while I don't like thinking of any as quitters, have, shall we say, seemed to have lost their edge. Maybe it was due to Butler, maybe it was a few of the players attitude. We don't know. Only time may tell. Without depth, it only takes a very few to hurt the overall performance.

[Veritas]

Now you're starting to spin, @Veritas:. No one knows what Hooper would have done this season and I was a Hooper booster. Yep, Gene might have done better. His recruits. They'd probably still be getting "specials" from the Under Armour catalogue, too.

Very few here believed that #1 pre-season rank and there was little to support it. Before the season started, many also thought it would not turn around in just a year or two either.

This Gene, Hooper, Butler talk doesn't really matter anyway. What's done is done. Get over it. Support the team or find something else. A new coach deserves time to get his own players into the program.

Several players have improved this year. Several have gone down hill. A few others, while I don't like thinking of any as quitters, have, shall we say, seemed to have lost their edge. Maybe it was due to Butler, maybe it was a few of the players attitude. We don't know. Only time may tell. Without depth, it only takes a very few to hurt the overall performance.

I do support the team and I support the players. But I don't have to drink the sexton kool aide. Count me as skeptical. I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong and hope I have the opportunity.

[SB Shock]

... And no bench. Are you really arguing that Butler's first WSU team can be compared to Marshall's first team? I don't recall Marshall's first team ranked preseason #1
Sounds to me like a lot of those shouting for change last season are starting to spin.
I think Gene would have done better with this team, and certainly Hooper would have done better. Now we are hearing it might take 3-4 years.

Your gene trolling is weak - you keep spouting mvc preseason #1 like means something. We all know how the mvc media votes on this - only thing it means was WSU was the only team with returning players.

The evidence is to the contrary of what gene would have done with this team or program. You only have to look at the last 5 years.

[Play Angry]

I didn't think anyone still took Veritas seriously after those complete and repeated ADES posting meltdowns the last few years.

[Ricardo del Rio]

LOL

Marshall had Cousinard, Braeuer, Mekel, Durley, Clemente, Hatch, Ellis his first year - That is starting with nothing.

Careful with those facts, SB. Be very careful.

[Cdizzle]

Marshall had Cousinard, Braeuer, Mekel, Durley, Clemente, Hatch, Ellis his first year - That is starting with nothing.

And Butler had Gillaspie, Ladwig, Elam, and Tewes. Inheriting a Top 10 hitter and a Top 10 weekend rotation isn't exactly starting with nothing, either. I don't have a strong opinion either way at this point, but I'm pretty sure a blind giraffe could have coached a team built around those guys to a middle of the pack Valley finish.

[SB Shock]

And Butler had Gillaspie, Ladwig, Elam, and Tewes. Inheriting a Top 10 hitter and a Top 10 weekend rotation isn't exactly starting with nothing, either.

Baseball takes more 4 quality players you listed if you want to win.

I'm pretty sure a blind giraffe could have coached a team built around those guys to a middle of the pack Valley finish.

Well, that has been proven for the last half-decade at WSU, at the very least WSU got the same results at lot less cost and embarrassment to the University with Butler.

[WstateU]

And Butler had Gillaspie, Ladwig, Elam, and Tewes. Inheriting a Top 10 hitter and a Top 10 weekend rotation isn't exactly starting with nothing, either. I don't have a strong opinion either way at this point, but I'm pretty sure a blind giraffe could have coached a team built around those guys to a middle of the pack Valley finish.

[Veritas]

I didn't think anyone still took Veritas seriously after those complete and repeated ADES posting meltdowns the last few years.

I've accepted the decision, but the performance of this year didn't take away the sting as I had hoped.
Additionally, I shall not think highly of ADES until Gene is rewarded and acknowledged by the athletic department for his overall contributions to the WSU baseball program.

Here's hoping for a MoVal tournament championship and a run in the NCAA tournament.

[Veritas]

Your gene trolling is weak - you keep spouting mvc preseason #1 like means something. We all know how the mvc media votes on this - only thing it means was WSU was the only team with returning players.

The evidence is to the contrary of what gene would have done with this team or program. You only have to look at the last 5 years.

I'm not trolling anymore than you are easy bait.
Let's separate the facts from the hyperbole BS SB.

You are pretty knowledgeable with the baseball program.
Give us your predictions for the next 3 years (year by year).

[ShockTalk]

And Butler had Gillaspie, Ladwig, Elam, and Tewes. Inheriting a Top 10 hitter and a Top 10 weekend rotation isn't exactly starting with nothing, either. I don't have a strong opinion either way at this point, but I'm pretty sure a blind giraffe could have coached a team built around those guys to a middle of the pack Valley finish.

Just for discussion of the importance of good depth vs star power, let's look at the players you mentioned and how they "responded" to the head coaching change.

First, the pitching. The pitchers had their pitching coach back, so any negative "change" should have been minimal and their performance shouldn't have been much different whether it was Butler or Stevenson. Since this was Tewes first year, we can't compare seasons, but he basically took Gardner's role (and stats) as the 3rd starter and should have been added depth to the starters. Elam and Ladwig had greatly improved seasons with their ERAs going from 3.17 and 4.54 to 2.25 to 1.20 respectively. So, the "star" pitchers seemed to respond well to Butler (if he made a difference). Problem was that we didn't end up with starting depth and had no closer to take Peterson's place the previous year. That second part is huge in close ball games and I don't believe can be laid at Butler's feet.

Second, the hitting. Gillaspie will hit more HRs, have more RBIs, and improve his average by around 100 points so the change certainly didn't hurt him. He isn't the only hitter to improve under Butler. Parker and Kihle made great strides. These 3 players improved their combined average from .268 last season to .346 this year. It was a small sample, but it also looked like Mucha and Zimmerman were to have improved seasons, but injuries took them out as well as Harbutz for a long period. Those injuries not only hurt the overall hitting performance of the team, but also it's depth.

I don't know what happened to Bayliff, Baker, Dearman, Green, Haddox, and Bobbit. Maybe some of it was just a down year, some of it Butler, some of it on the players. Their combined averages dropped from .324 to .248. The "stars" simply couldn't overcome this big drop in performance among other starters and bench, especially with the injuries. Nevertheless, the drop in hitting was not across the board and some players have improved greatly under Butler's watch.

Our lack depth just couldn't handle the number/length of injuries to starting position players. Had most of those injuries not happened or been less in length and we had a closer, I believe this season would have looked a lot better in spite of the number of players with an "off" season.

[ShockTalk]

And Butler had Gillaspie, Ladwig, Elam, and Tewes. Inheriting a Top 10 hitter and a Top 10 weekend rotation isn't exactly starting with nothing, either. I don't have a strong opinion either way at this point, but I'm pretty sure a blind giraffe could have coached a team built around those guys to a middle of the pack Valley finish.

.

[WSUwatcher]

well, look at this way - had Gene been here this year would have been an abomination, and at least Butler gets a chance to start digging this program out of the crapper that Gene put it in a year earlier.

Ah, more typical Gene bashing. Last year was 39-28; this year's team was supposed to be as good or better. Obviously the suspensions didn't help, and those certainly can't be blamed on the Butler regime. But the play itself has deteriorated, as has the defense. And lots of hitters haven't progressed. That's a fair reason to be concerned.

Still, two years is NOT enough to judge Butler, much less one. Look at where Marshall started vs. where he is now; look at how Coach K started at Duke -- and it's easier to rebuild in basketball than it is in baseball, considering that basketball teams have MORE scholarships for many fewer players than baseball requires. So this year has been disappointing, and there's absolutely no basis for believing that a Stephenson farewell tour would have been 26-26 (or worse, for heaven's sake) at this point. But it would equally as foolish to panic about Butler's prospects at WSU as it is to pretend that Gene and his crew are somehow scuttling the ship, to quote one especially obsessive basher's description, by remote control.