MVC Standings [4/7/13]

[ShockerFever]

I believe Illinois-Chicago (UIC) was the school that was investing heavily in baseball, including building an incredibly nice stadium (or upgrading) in downtown Chicago. This was one of the schools being throwing around during the expansion talks so I think that's where some folks might be confusing them with Loyola's baseball movement, which, by the way, is at zero.

[shox1989]

Gene was saying in his radio show tonight that he was telling the team that winning the league and getting the #1 seed could be very big if the standings stayed pretty much as they are now at the bottom. He said if the were the #2 or #3 seed they probably would be facing pitchers in the 1st round that they have never beaten before. (At least I believe that is what he said).

I heard that too. That is basically what he said.

[shox1989]

Gene was saying in his radio show tonight that he was telling the team that winning the league and getting the #1 seed could be very big if the standings stayed pretty much as they are now at the bottom. He said if the were the #2 or #3 seed they probably would be facing pitchers in the 1st round that they have never beaten before. (At least I believe that is what he said).

Thinking a little bit more about what he said, If WSU finishes second they would face SIU's ace in the first round. He did beat WSU just last week in Carbondale. If WSU finishes third it looks like there would be a good chance WSU would face Indy State in the first round. Indy State's ace also beat WSU (although they waited to pitch him until Sunday instead of Friday, so he faced Ladwig instead of Elam).

[ShockTalk]

Thinking a little bit more about what he said, If WSU finishes second they would face SIU's ace in the first round. He did beat WSU just last week in Carbondale. If WSU finishes third it looks like there would be a good chance WSU would face Indy State in the first round. Indy State's ace also beat WSU (although they waited to pitch him until Sunday instead of Friday, so he faced Ladwig instead of Elam).

This is why 1 and 2 seeds should get a reward for their regular season performance. A one pitcher team can drop a more quality overall team into the longer elimination bracket. With 1 and 2 getting byes, if a low seed wants to hold back their ace in the first game, that's the risk they take because of their season performance.

[WSUwatcher]

This is why 1 and 2 seeds should get a reward for their regular season performance. A one pitcher team can drop a more quality overall team into the longer elimination bracket. With 1 and 2 getting byes, if a low seed wants to hold back their ace in the first game, that's the risk they take because of their season performance.

Very true, ShockTalk, but how often does anything the Valley does with the baseball tournament make sense? This is one of the problems with playing in a league where half the teams either don't play baseball at all or don't much care about it.

[1972Shocker]

How about this for a format. Only the top 6 teams qualify for the Valley tourmament.

The top two seeds receive a first round bye.

In the first round 3 plays 6 and 4 plays 5 with the losers eliminated and the winners advancing to join the top 2 seeds in 4-team double elimination bracket. The #1 team plays the lowest remaining seed and the #2 seed playes the other remaining team in he next round. After that the bracket would follow a normal progression.

[WuDrWu]

How about this for a format. Only the top 6 teams qualify for the Valley tourmament.

The top two seeds receive a first round bye.

In the first round 3 plays 6 and 4 plays 5 with the losers eliminated and the winners advancing to join the top 2 seeds in 4-team double elimination bracket. The #1 team plays the lowest remaining seed and the #2 seed playes the other remaining team in he next round. After that the bracket would follow a normal progression.

Nope. That would reward teams that outperform the rest of the conference over a determined length of time, therefore rendering the actual process of determining who the conference representative will be sightly unfair, and you know damned good and well we will not have any lack of fairness around these parts. Bradley and Evansville are going to have the exact same chance at winning the tournament as WSU or anyone else, regardless of what they put (or don't put) into their program the other 361 days of the year. Fair is fair!

[1972Shocker]

Nope. That would reward teams that outperform the rest of the conference over a determined length of time, therefore rendering the actual process of determining who the conference representative will be sightly unfair, and you know damned good and well we will not have any lack of fairness around these parts. Bradley and Evansville are going to have the exact same chance at winning the tournament as WSU or anyone else, regardless of what they put (or don't put) into their program the other 361 days of the year. Fair is fair!

I suppose so, and that approach is no doubt carved into a cow patty in the hot Texas sun!

[WSUwatcher]

Nope. That would reward teams that outperform the rest of the conference over a determined length of time, therefore rendering the actual process of determining who the conference representative will be sightly unfair, and you know damned good and well we will not have any lack of fairness around these parts. Bradley and Evansville are going to have the exact same chance at winning the tournament as WSU or anyone else, regardless of what they put (or don't put) into their program the other 361 days of the year. Fair is fair!

No, Doc -- I know you're kidding, but this sort of loose "fairness" talk is exactly what causes a lot of problems, especially with conferences like the Valley that have unimpressive administration and a bunch of weak-sister low budget teams who don't want to have to spend money to compete.

A better way to say it would be, "Equal is equal, even if it isn't fair." That's the Valley way, even though an equal chance at a reward for unequal performance is most definitely NOT fair.

[WSUwatcher]

Now, this is just weird, even by MVC standards, which is really saying something. Here's what PaulS reported about the WSU softball team in the Valley tournament:

..."WSU’s softball team qualified for the MVC Tournament as the No. 8 seed. The Shockers (19-32, 1-15 MVC) play No. 5 Southern Illinois (24-26, 12-10) at 11 a.m. Thursday in Omaha. The winner plays No. 4 Northern Iowa (23-24, 13-8) at 4 p.m. Creighton is the top seed and is on WSU’s side of the bracket. The Bluejays (29-17, 15-7) earned a double-bye and play at noon on Friday, needing one win to advance to Saturday’s championship game."

So in softball, another sport in which a one-pitcher team can be disproportionately dangerous (maybe even more than in baseball), the Valley rewards -- and protects -- teams who performed well during the regular season, giving byes for the top four finishers and double byes for the top two; but in baseball, the tournament is a crapshoot where everyone's just thrown together right from the start.

To mix sporting metaphors, that sounds about par for the course in this laughable mess of a league.

[shocker3]

Now, this is just weird, even by MVC standards, which is really saying something. Here's what PaulS reported about the WSU softball team in the Valley tournament:

..."WSU’s softball team qualified for the MVC Tournament as the No. 8 seed. The Shockers (19-32, 1-15 MVC) play No. 5 Southern Illinois (24-26, 12-10) at 11 a.m. Thursday in Omaha. The winner plays No. 4 Northern Iowa (23-24, 13-8) at 4 p.m. Creighton is the top seed and is on WSU’s side of the bracket. The Bluejays (29-17, 15-7) earned a double-bye and play at noon on Friday, needing one win to advance to Saturday’s championship game."

So in softball, another sport in which a one-pitcher team can be disproportionately dangerous (maybe even more than in baseball), the Valley rewards -- and protects -- teams who performed well during the regular season, giving byes for the top four finishers and double byes for the top two; but in baseball, the tournament is a crapshoot where everyone's just thrown together right from the start.

To mix sporting metaphors, that sounds about par for the course in this laughable mess of a league.

It sounds like softball has figured out a pretty good format for an 8 team tournament. That sounds like the format they should be using for baseball.

[1972Shocker]

It sounds like softball has figured out a pretty good format for an 8 team tournament. That sounds like the format they should be using for baseball.

Except softball is single elimination. However, see my post above for an option that is a hybrid of what the softball, baseball and volleyball are currently doing.

[shocker3]

How about this for a format. Only the top 6 teams qualify for the Valley tourmament.

The top two seeds receive a first round bye.

In the first round 3 plays 6 and 4 plays 5 with the losers eliminated and the winners advancing to join the top 2 seeds in 4-team double elimination bracket. The #1 team plays the lowest remaining seed and the #2 seed playes the other remaining team in he next round. After that the bracket would follow a normal progression.

Okay now I see this post. I think that is a good format. There is no reason for the Valley to send their bottom feeder teams to the tournament. For years the Valley had 9 teams that played baseball and only 6 of them made the conference tournament.
While I didn't particularly care for the old 6 team format (it got very confusing after the second round), I like your idea.

[shox1989]

After tonight's games, WSU remains in first at 14-5. Illinois State is second at 11-5 (1 1/2 games behind the Shox). Cu is third (only in the Valley world) at 10-6 (2 1/2 games behind Wsu) MoST is fourth at 11-7 (also 2 1/2 games behind the Shox, which in most leagues would mean they would be tied for 3rd with Cu). Evansville is in fifth at 10-8 (3 1/2 games behind the Shockers).

[WSUwatcher]

After tonight's games, WSU remains in first at 14-5. Illinois State is second at 11-5 (1 1/2 games behind the Shox). Cu is third (only in the Valley world) at 10-6 (2 1/2 games behind Wsu) MoST is fourth at 11-7 (also 2 1/2 games behind the Shox, which in most leagues would mean they would be tied for 3rd with Cu). Evansville is in fifth at 10-8 (3 1/2 games behind the Shockers).

I laugh and scoff at the Valley as much as anyone, 1989, but the standings you cited above are correct and would be anywhere. All leagues decide their regular season championships on winning percentage, and Creighton's 10-6 (.625) is percentage points better than MSU's 11-7 (.611).