Phase V Eck Stadium to Begin

[ShockerFever]

Short of “11 games under .500 over 6 seasons isn't that bad” what exactly was kool aid in that post? Surely we can all agree that Butler was a good recruiter. Surely we can all agree the product on the field underperformed. Surely we can all agree wedge is unproven as a recruiter. What flavor of kool aid are we talking about here?
Oh well. Let the hate flow through you I suppose.

Bring on the season so we can all let the past be the past.

You don't believe Butler buried the program?

[WuDrWu]

shoxtop is plenty capable of defending himself, but all I read from that is that he believes the program isn't "buried". Down? Yes. Underachieving? Yes.

Buried? Not yet.

The program needs support. It's been bleeding cash for a decade. Those of us that want to see it return to it's glory better be ready to support it, big time.

[shoxtop]

You don't believe Butler buried the program?

I suppose the memory of the Cohen years gives me a different definition of the word “buried”.

[ShockerFever]

shoxtop is plenty capable of defending himself, but all I read from that is that he believes the program isn't "buried". Down? Yes. Underachieving? Yes.

Buried? Not yet.

The program needs support. It's been bleeding cash for a decade. Those of us that want to see it return to it's glory better be ready to support it, big time.

I'm not sure what your definition of "buried" is. It's a relative situation too because this program was one of college baseball's elites as well. And no I'm not talking about the 80's and 90s. This program was hosting regionals and relevant nationally well into the late 2000's. So compared to that situation, yes, I'd say we're buried. We're nowhere close to the same. Have you seen attendance at games the last 5 years? That is the definition of irrelevant and buried. And that's the reason why this program is bleeding cash. The last 5 years have had average attendance counts comparable to area high school baseball games.

[ShockerFever]

I suppose the memory of the Cohen years gives me a different definition of the word “buried”.

Again, all relative. The basketball program has never been "elite". It's been good. To go from good to putrid is similar to going from elite to bad, like we have in baseball. Todd Butler is the equivalent to Mike Cohen. An ok assistant coach that was handed the keys and drove in reverse the entire way.

Finishing consistently in the bottom half of the conference standings for 5 straight years, not being at all relevant, low IO product, and attendance going from respectable to non-existent is definitely putting dirt on the ol' grave.

I'm confident Eric Wedge has already grabbed a shovel and is leveling dirt as we speak.

[shoxtop]

Again, all relative. The basketball program has never been "elite". It's been good. To go from good to putrid is similar to going from elite to bad, like we have in baseball. Todd Butler is the equivalent to Mike Cohen. An ok assistant coach that was handed the keys and drove in reverse the entire way.

Finishing consistently in the bottom half of the conference standings for 5 straight years, not being at all relevant, low IO product, and attendance going from respectable to non-existent is definitely putting dirt on the ol' grave.

I'm confident Eric Wedge has already grabbed a shovel and is leveling dirt as we speak.

I generally disagree with your premise, but I suppose it’s all just semantics. Sadly hot takes and hyperbole seem to be the majority of what the internet has to offer as far as sport are concerned these days - nuance be damned. Carry on.

[WuDrWu]

I'm not sure what your definition of "buried" is. It's a relative situation too because this program was one of college baseball's elites as well. And no I'm not talking about the 80's and 90s. This program was hosting regionals and relevant nationally well into the late 2000's. So compared to that situation, yes, I'd say we're buried. We're nowhere close to the same. Have you seen attendance at games the last 5 years? That is the definition of irrelevant and buried. And that's the reason why this program is bleeding cash. The last 5 years have had average attendance counts comparable to area high school baseball games.

I don't know much of anything that's buried that has a chance at coming back to life. So buried would be dead. So you must be saying the program is dead. I disagree. shoxtop disagrees.

This program had slid a long way from 2007 to 2013 under Gene. It slid a lot further under HCTB the next 6 seasons. It's still a top 100 program with top 50 facilities. That doesn't seem buried to me. Lots of guys drafted the last few years, a couple on the fast track to the Bigs. That's not buried.

We can agree that HCEW is doing everything he can to reverse that course. We can also agree that Cohen=Butler is pretty darned good.



You asked if I've seen attendance the last 5 years? I have. I'm at about 90% of the home games over that time. How about you Fev? Have you been to 90% of the games? Or have you been on the sidelines, bitching and moaning and not giving any money or providing any support about 90% of the time?


That's A reason the program is bleeding cash. There are many more. Most can be tied to a poor product one way or the other. The fact of the matter is that baseball has almost always lost money. Moving to the American has accelerated those losses. We're going to have to sell a lot more tickets, raise a lot more money and do it every year. Do you have any idea what it costs to fly 45 to the east coast and house them for 3 nights, feed them, pay them and transport them around? It's not cheap. We bused everywhere in the Valley. We fly most places in the American (although that's probably going to be adjusted going forward). HCEW is almost certainly going to want to start the trip back to Hawaii again. LOTS of money. Not much whining.

[Cdizzle]

Please don't make me put myself in timeout again. We're literally two days from basketball season.

Wedge is coach. The Eck is getting finished and face-lifted. Kum-ba-ya, mofos.

[ShockerFever]

You asked if I've seen attendance the last 5 years? I have. I'm at about 90% of the home games over that time. How about you Fev? Have you been to 90% of the games? Or have you been on the sidelines, bitching and moaning and not giving any money or providing any support about 90% of the time?

Really Doc? You're really gonna drop the DSB school of thought down on me?

So because there's not 5000 fans attending games watching low IQ baseball go onto 25-35 seasons I or others are at fault? Why would I support a perennial loser in charge? That would hurt more than it would help. Do you think if there were 5000 fans a game while Butler was coach that they would've gotten rid of him? NOPE. As long as they had cash in the bank, they wouldn't care.

It's not MY job to get others to support the program. It's the administration's job to build a winner to gain support. You have everything backwards. Sure, it'd be nice to drop a couple grand a year to the baseball program just to get it out of life support, but unfortunately with a 3 month old at home, my finances have additional priorities right now. Does that make me a bad fan? Am I only allowed to biitch if I achieve a Bold Gold level or above?

Come on.

[Shockm]

Fever
Congratulations on your baby. Having a family and being a good husband and father are probably the most difficult and yet most rewarding "callings" in life. Your finances, while important with your baby are just a small part of fatherhood. It is much more important than being a "fan" (although being a fan of the Shockers is great too) and I applaud you for taking on this immense responsibility. Your priorities are definitely in the right place and I wish you all of the joys that I have known, even during late nights, lack of sleep, and the many hours of rocking sick, crying, and unhappy babies/toddlers. It's quite sobering that a baby looks up to their parents to take care of "ALL" of their needs early in life and helping them to learn how to make good decisions later. My prayers are with your family and I've become one of your biggest fans.

[Kung Wu]

Fever
Congratulations on your baby.

Just a matter of 6 or 7 years before Fever starts dropping "your mom" jokes on his kid. :)

[WuDrWu]

Really Doc? You're really gonna drop the DSB school of thought down on me?

So because there's not 5000 fans attending games watching low IQ baseball go onto 25-35 seasons I or others are at fault? Why would I support a perennial loser in charge? That would hurt more than it would help. Do you think if there were 5000 fans a game while Butler was coach that they would've gotten rid of him? NOPE. As long as they had cash in the bank, they wouldn't care.

It's not MY job to get others to support the program. It's the administration's job to build a winner to gain support. You have everything backwards. Sure, it'd be nice to drop a couple grand a year to the baseball program just to get it out of life support, but unfortunately with a 3 month old at home, my finances have additional priorities right now. Does that make me a bad fan? Am I only allowed to biitch if I achieve a Bold Gold level or above?

Come on.

This will be my final comment, if for no other reason than to afford you what you love more than life itself, the last word, so when I'm done, blast away my friend.

In response to your attempted jibe with the "DSB school of thought" comment, I've said it before and I'll say it again, DSB is a bigger and better fan and supporter of WSU athletics than you've ever been, or ever will be. Sorry if that hurts.

YOU questioned if I had seen the attendance. I responded that I have, in detail. I asked the same of you. You explained why you can't now (not sure if it has an affect on the last 4-6 seasons or not, but I understand going forward), then blamed the admins for it.

I didn't say it was your job to get others to support the program. It's nobody's "job" as far as I know to support the program. I do believe that if you choose not support the program that you lose a lot of your say. That's just me. You and others may have a different opinion.

All you did was create strawman arguments. Make a big deal where there wasn't a deal. It's what you do, and it's tiresome. You used to be so much better.

One person said the program isn't buried and explained why. That's all. You chose to argue that and utter all your old talking points. The program isn't buried. You were wrong, just admit it and move along.

I don't have things backwards at all. I am honest about how things work. If you wait to support a winner, the likelihood that you'll ever have a winner is diminished a ton. In today's college athletics, if you want to win you either have to spend a ton of money up front and then make few if any mistakes (make the right hires etc) or get exceedingly lucky. And if it's the latter, don't expect it to last. Perhaps that's what you want? To grind along in mediocrity and hopefully once in awhile we catch lightning in a bottle and you get to have fun supporting a winner for half a season? I suppose that's not a bad way to go, certainly it's a more fiscally sound way to go.

I understand why people don't support a winner. It's rarely fun, and if you're pragmatic, it makes little to no sense. I get that. So does most everyone and it explains (mostly) why losing programs have empty seats and winning ones have full seats. But without the constant flow of monetary support, it's just going to be an up and down riding of the tide, and in TODAY'S D1 college athletics landscape, if you're not flush with football cash, it's going to be a lot more down than up, unless you can find the money somewhere else. We need to find the money somewhere else.



Finally, congratulations on being a father, I didn't know that. There is no more important job or greater reward. Don't take for granted these moments because I promise you they are gone far too quickly. Relish these times, engage in everything you can and enjoy the moment. It's by far the most important thing we do.

[ShockerFever]

I appreciate the congrats. It definitely puts things in perspective.

As for the current argument, I’ll just bow out and leave it as is. Nobody’s changing their minds and it honestly doesn’t matter much anymore.

[C0|dB|00ded]

'Fever did some pretty decent trolling here.

The baseball program is not buried lol.

We just signed the highest profile coach in the history of the program.

We are in a FANTASTIC baseball conference.

And Gene's legacy has fans still chomping at the bit to write checks.

The second a decent product is on the field, the fans will return. People aren't going to spend the massive block of time a baseball game requires with the expectation of a **** show.

P.S. I wonder if B-Wrong has enough foresight to understand the importance of a massive crowd for opening day? I wonder if he'll understand that filling the stadium and giving all the fans the impression that Shocker baseball is back, could be pivotal in how fast this program rebounds? I wonder if he'll leave the safe confines of his desk chair and go around the city making presentations with our new coach to every large group that will listen offering complimentary tickets for opening day? I wonder if he'll do his job. Well we'll know soon enough and it will all be on the AD's back. Gene has done as much as he can from the coaching grave. This is our last shot.


T


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[WstateU]

'Fever did some pretty decent trolling here.

The baseball program is not buried lol.

We just signed the highest profile coach in the history of the program.

We are in a FANTASTIC baseball conference.

And Gene's legacy has fans still chomping at the bit to write checks.

The second a decent product is on the field, the fans will return. People aren't going to spend the massive block of time a baseball game requires with the expectation of a **** show.

P.S. I wonder if B-Wrong has enough foresight to understand the importance of a massive crowd for opening day? I wonder if he'll understand that filling the stadium and giving all the fans the impression that Shocker baseball is back, could be pivotal in how fast this program rebounds? I wonder if he'll leave the safe confines of his desk chair and go around the city making presentations with our new coach to every large group that will listen offering complimentary tickets for opening day? I wonder if he'll do his job. Well we'll know soon enough and it will all be on the AD's back. Gene has done as much as he can from the coaching grave. This is our last shot.


T


...

Hopefully "opening day" won't be 28 degrees... just sayin'...