Help me out - What caused the fall of Wichita State baseball?

[Veritas]

Ultimately it is on the head man. He got less aggressive recruiting, rarely leaving the state. I think he spent a lot of energy on the stadium and not on the program. And of course there were the personal issues. You don't think the stalking charges and settlement impacted recruitment and fundraising? The exit for Oklahoma, how he handled the Molina incident, and of course just the on field performance. Jim Schaus nor Eric Sexton did not have anything do with any of those things above. It is my understanding that Schaus did not want GS back after the OU thing, but he was out of town and then-President Don Beggs welcomed him back. I think GS made the program about himself and was frankly selfish how he handled the end/exit.

EDIT: But of course he deserves nearly all of the credit for the rise and success of the program.

Any chance you can eliminate the subjective personal feeling from your argument and provide statistical support.

[ABC]

That's dumb. The entire thing is mostly subjective. But since you ask, 2010, 2011, 2012 without an NCAA berth. 2009 and 2013, 0-2 in the NCAA. What do you think caused the downfall?

[another shocker]

when did the stalking incident come to light?

[ShockTalk]

Molina incident 1999. WSU still finished 1st in the MVC, but their overall record was the worst since 1984. The following year, WSU finished 2nd in the Valley for the first time in 15 years, followed by two more 2nds over the next 4 years. Also, WSU lost 20 or more games 4 of those 6 years after not having lost 20 games since 1987. The previous 15 years, WSU winning % was .793. Those next 6 years, .642.

Then Gene spent his "one" day as OU's coach.

Gene came back to WSU with one of the best recruiting classes (and already in place before leaving to OU) he had had since the 1999 incident. Over the next 3 years, they compiled an overall winning % of .707 winning two 1st MVC titles and going to two Super Regionals.

Was everything fixed? Well after that group of players left, Gene had his worst season in around 25 years going 30-27, never having won fewer than 40 games. Over those last 5 years, WSU winning percentage was .595, finishng 1st in the Valley only once with two 2nds and two 3rds. Yes, he did backdoor getting into 2 regional in which WSU was quickly dispatched.

Did the college baseball landscape change? Probably. But that does answer the Shockers problem within the MVC. Gene had 14 straight MVC regular season titles through 2000. Over the next 8 years: four 1sts, three 2nds, and one 3rd place finish. The last 5 years: one 1st, two 2nds, and two 3rds.

I'm not sure how one can credit Gene with his first 23 years, while not holding him responsible for the last 13 years where there is a noticable decline. In spite of his "actions/distractions", he was still being paid top 10 wages and not smelling at-large worthiness.

[ABC]

Yes, ShockTalk, it really isn't complicated. I'm still waiting for Veritas to acknowledge that GS has at least a wee bit of responsibility.

[Veritas]

The question was whether GS CAUSED the fall of WSU baseball. Even during his down years which ShockTalk tries objectively to highlight, there is little doubt Gene's record (even during his down years) far exceeds Butlers best years.
What CAUSED the FALL of WSU baseball was fADES and aADDB not setting up for a smooth transition for a new coach once Gene retired, choosing the wrong replacement, and presenting HCTB with a ridiculous contract with little hope of recovery until he leaves.

As I have discussed numerous times, fHCGS had faults mainly with his extreme loyalty, refusal to over-recruit, and a severe back injury which hurt his ability to hit the recruiting trail. However, to write that he CAUSED the fall of WSU baseball is silly. He perhaps did not maintain a top 10 program year after year after year, but sure as heck didn't CAUSE the fall.

[ABC]

The question was whether GS CAUSED the fall of WSU baseball. Even during his down years which ShockTalk tries objectively to highlight, there is little doubt Gene's record (even during his down years) far exceeds Butlers best years.
What CAUSED the FALL of WSU baseball was fADES and aADDB not setting up for a smooth transition for a new coach once Gene retired, choosing the wrong replacement, and presenting HCTB with a ridiculous contract with little hope of recovery until he leaves.

As I have discussed numerous times, fHCGS had faults mainly with his extreme loyalty, refusal to over-recruit, and a severe back injury which hurt his ability to hit the recruiting trail. However, to write that he CAUSED the fall of WSU baseball is silly. He perhaps did not maintain a top 10 program year after year after year, but sure as heck didn't CAUSE the fall.

Ummm here is what you posted on an earlier page:

It is myopic ignorance at the very least for anyone to blame fHCGS.

I don't recall anyone saying "caused." But now that you brought it up, there were a lot of causes, including Gene. At least you acknowledge that. As for the replacement process, Gene himself eliminated the possibility of a smooth transition no matter who the AD was.

[Veritas]

Ummm here is what you posted on an earlier page:

It is myopic ignorance at the very least for anyone to blame fHCGS.

I don't recall anyone saying "caused." But now that you brought it up, there were a lot of causes, including Gene. At least you acknowledge that. As for the replacement process, Gene himself eliminated the possibility of a smooth transition no matter who the AD was.

Definitely not your best response ABC... Is it not a given that I’m responding in part to the title of the post which is titled “What caused the fall of WSU baseball.” I also capitalized the font numerous times and you still missed the point.

[ABC]

So you think Gene was at least a cause or not? I do

[ShockTalk]

Definitely not your best response ABC... Is it not a given that I’m responding in part to the title of the post which is titled “What caused the fall of WSU baseball.” I also capitalized the font numerous times and you still missed the point.

The fall didn't start with the hiring of Butler.

[ShockerFever]

Would you have preferred a Gene type fall and results or a Butler type fall and results?

[Kung Wu]

This isn't a fHCGS vs HCTB discussion.

There is no doubt Gene was a far, far, far better head coach than Butler will ever be. I mean fHCGS is a hall of famer freaking national championship winning legend that built the program! But it was time to start searching for fHCGS's replacement, and while that is in temporarily botched status, that just means the search continues. Having back-to-back hall of famer coaches is practically impossible in any sport.

Let's just recognize that fHCGS was a fallible human being like the rest of us sinners, whose gas tank was running very low, but whose engine was mighty when it was at peak performance. Lets get that stadium/field/statue in place.

And lets shake every reasonable branch of that potential monster of a coaching tree he could have planted to see if it bears sweet fruit!

I hope fHCGS is loving and taking advantage of everything that retirement has to offer, and I hope HCTB gets a sweet gig as an assistant coach with a major league franchise!

[Veritas]

I think we have different definitions of “caused” with regard to the fall of WSU’s baseball program. Was Gene able to keep it amongst the top 5-10 programs for 30 straight years. No. He tripped up in the last 5 years, but still maintained the program to be a top 20-30 program for the most part.
However, the ineptitude of the AD, mishandling of the transition, and hiring and pay of the current coach led to a steep and perilous decline of the program, attendance, reputation, rankings, and status.
Gene did not cause the fall of WSU baseball. The AD and hiring of Todd Butler not only caused the fall but cemented the program in a state of apathy. Gene had nothing to do with that.

[jdmee]

The other question is when do you consider the "fall" started? Is it the last World Series appearance in '96? the last Super Regional in '08? The last at-large worthy team in '07 or '08? The last NCAA team? The end of the 40+ win streak in '09? or is it your subjective opinion based upon what you see on the field?


If you think the fall of WSU baseball began with the firing of fHCGS and/or the hiring of HCTB, then what do you think was the beginning of the fall of fHCGS? When did the light at the end of his career begin or do you think nothing was wrong before and it was just the ego of our new AD that ended his tenure?

[jdmee]

I think we have different definitions of “caused” with regard to the fall of WSU’s baseball program. Was Gene able to keep it amongst the top 5-10 programs for 30 straight years. No. He tripped up in the last 5 years, but still maintained the program to be a top 20-30 program for the most part.
However, the ineptitude of the AD, mishandling of the transition, and hiring and pay of the current coach led to a steep and perilous decline of the program, attendance, reputation, rankings, and status.
Gene did not cause the fall of WSU baseball. The AD and hiring of Todd Butler not only caused the fall but cemented the program in a state of apathy. Gene had nothing to do with that.

Do you think Gene was going to bring us back to being amongst the top 5-10 programs? consistent top 20? at large worthy? What do you think our program was going to be going forward?

Do you think he was willing to let go of one of his assistants and hire the heir apparent to the program any time soon? What should have been done to handle the transition correctly? What should have been done in regards with the transition if FHCGS told you to sit and spin on your "transition" suggestion? What should have been done if his position was to let me run my program my way or fire me?

Even if you think that he built the program and it was his to run the way he wanted to until he was ready to let it go, that doesn't mean that there were not indicators for someone who thought different.

[jdmee]

My point is problem not necessarily solved. The main point of my question is if he told you nope I am not renegotiating my contract, now what? What if the response is I am a top 10 coach, I built this program and you will pay me as such?

[shockfan89_]

That's the beauty of an incentive-based contract! WSU's response could be that we will pay you more than you make now, substantially more, when you make a Regional, Super-Regional, and Omaha. Use his ego against him. "Gene, we know you will succeed and we know you will make more, don't you believe in yourself?"

His contract expired at the end of the 2014 season (one more year that we ended up paying him for anyway). You place the contract in front of him and he can choose to sign it or quit. The optics of fHCGS quitting over money are much better than firing him (which was an absolute disaster).

I doubt very many people would have been angry had WSU offered a 5 year deal and GS decided he didn't want to sign it. At that point the athletic department could have gone public and said we want GS to be the coach of Shocker Baseball, but we can't continue to pay him a top 10 salary when we aren't making the tournament every year. I think GS was even on record stating he would have taken a pay cut but the "deal" was quit tomorrow or be fired. Who in their right mind is going to quit and walk away from $500,000 for not working?

jdmee - I am not trying to argue with you, as I think this is water under the bridge. My point is that this could have been handled much better than it was because WSU was actually at a point to negotiate from a position of power. WSU decided to fire fHCGS which to me was the very worst option available. The results on the field were definitely not what we wanted, or were paying for, but I think WSU failed to realize how bad they could (and did) get when fHCGS left. The transition could have been so much better for WSU had we used fHCGS' knowledge and connections to help set WSU up to be successful rather than created this friction that is still going on 5 years later. Especially when you had great candidates that weren't even interviewed or considered for the job because they were "Gene's guys" or friendly to fHCGS.

[jdmee]

Thank you for humoring me with this and I am not trying to argue either.

I am just trying to point out a fact that I think some people state that it is the AD fault without even considering that fHCGS could have said no to their new contract/Head Coach in waiting/etc offer and they don't think about the then what situation. Your solution is to let the contract run its course. That is understandable. I can also see how an AD wouldn't want to have a lame duck coach and the possible impact that would have on recruiting. I just think it was a no win situation.

We know that he has the ego to a fault and didn't want people telling him how to run his program. Just look at how many people were wanting him to replace ACJT.

I think everyone can agree that the current state of the program is not where we want to be. We can also agree that there were problems with the whole thing. HCTB should not have had PCBK forced on him. If he wanted to retain him great, but don't force him on the next HC. We can agree that former Shockers should have been considered.

There is some contention on when the was the right time for fHCGS to be let go. All sides have their points and there is nothing we can do about it now. The only thing to do now it to hope for the day that Shocker excellence can return.

[ABC]

This is the last post from me on this, I promise. Veritas, exactly what did the AD do to cause 3rd and 4th place finishes in the MVC? What did the AD have to do with NCAA compliance issues, personal issues etc.?

[Kung Wu]

Short answer: The Earth's tilt and its orbit around the Sun.

[1972Shocker]

The earth orbits around the sun?

[Kung Wu]

That or Bill Self.

[Husker]

.