At-large chances

[C0|dB|00ded]

I said a couple of weeks ago that I was going to stay out of these arguments for a variety of reasons. I've tried for the most part.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Anyone that thinks Gene or Brent or anything remotely resembling the 80s and 90s needs to have their heads examined. Not happening folks, and if you want someone to blame, then look in the mirror and blame your freaking self because we are losing the baseball arms race and it's because of lack of support. You want better? Open your wallet BEFORE we go to CWS, not after. That's how it works.

Most hear really don't have a particularly good grasp on college athletics.

I've had a great time watching and supporting this program this year. I feel that they've taken a big step forward. Did they max out, so to speak? Clearly no. Is the season over? Clearly no.

I will continue to support them until the season is over.

Am I concerned about the future? Of course. But I have complete confidence that ADDB will do what's best for WSU and WSU Baseball.

Go Shox and go HCTB!

I don't agree with the "losing the arms race" part. I've been flaunting the Shocker baseball facilities to anyone in the AAC that would listen as well as other power conference members over the last 12 months. Our "little" park in north Wichita still stacks up quite nicely. Now, I don't know about other aspects like recruiting budgets. Do major college baseball teams recruit by jet nowadays?

We needed Butler to come in and be successful quite immediately as the program had entered a nosedive under Gene and Co. Not only did the program not become successful immediately, the nosedive steepened. We're in a world of hurt right now and we need to make a home run hire. Not admitting to a sunk cost in Mini-B at this point is being intellectually rigid to put it nicely.

WuDoc, you're one of the best Shocker fans out there, but once this season comes to an end, we don't need a Shocker fan, we need an executioner. We need an AD that will do the right thing by rallying the base, raising the requisite financial resources, and making the great hire. That's his freakin' job. How he deals with the baseball situation will likely determine the length of it.


T


...:cool:

[ShockerFever]

I said a couple of weeks ago that I was going to stay out of these arguments for a variety of reasons. I've tried for the most part.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Anyone that thinks Gene or Brent or anything remotely resembling the 80s and 90s needs to have their heads examined. Not happening folks, and if you want someone to blame, then look in the mirror and blame your freaking self because we are losing the baseball arms race and it's because of lack of support. You want better? Open your wallet BEFORE we go to CWS, not after. That's how it works.

Most hear really don't have a particularly good grasp on college athletics.

I've had a great time watching and supporting this program this year. I feel that they've taken a big step forward. Did they max out, so to speak? Clearly no. Is the season over? Clearly no.

I will continue to support them until the season is over.

Am I concerned about the future? Of course. But I have complete confidence that ADDB will do what's best for WSU and WSU Baseball.

Go Shox and go HCTB!

Wait a second Doc. Are you saying the WSU baseball program is not one of the Top 30 or so programs in America? They are paying a Top 30 salary to a coach. They have a Top 30 facility. They have a Top 30 (more like Top 10) level tradition. They have Top 30 resources. And when they have faith, they have Top 30 type fan support.

Are you telling me that list is not capable of attaining Top 30 results on the field? Are you saying the baseball program is tapped out of resources and it's the freaking fans' fault?

Are you suggesting it's a poor look for WSU baseball if 5000 people don't pack the stands for a 7-13, 8th place AAC baseball team?

I CANNOT believe the blame here is being put on the fans. CAN. NOT.

We've had it good in a lot of sports for a long time and when one of the sports clearly is hitting the gutter, we're supposed to be in the blindly supporting camp? Otherwise, we're bad fans? Is this your true line of thinking all of these years?

I, just, can't.

[WuDrWu]

1. It certainly is NOT today and hasn't been for a decade. They are a top 30-40 TEAM this year though.
2. Are they? Honest question. If so, that's one place. I'm not arguing that the salary is or isn't perfect.
3. Maybe. Certainly in the mix. Past performances never guarantee future results.
4. No.
5. Not anymore. Not butts in seats.

Whether you want to agree or not, this team IS in the mix for an at large. I'm not saying they are in looking out, but they're in the mix. And they are a top 40 ish type team. Those are major steps forward.

This isn't about not getting 5000 fans for the 8th place team, Mr. Strawman, it IS however about getting 200 non family or friends to the vast majority of the home games. And ACTUALLY HAVING a very good year, that we all want, and still having maybe only 1500 WSU fans, at best...when we're winning... the weather is great...little else is going on and good to excellent competition is in town. What was the % of Nebraska fans here? OU? KU? Others?

People should know by now that I am a huge advocate of ShockerNation. The core is fantastic. Play Angry says it better below than I can. The corporate sales are in fact carrying the load. There is plenty of blame to go around, and fan support certainly has some to wear. Not all by any stretch, but they have some to wear. And I'm a big fan of blaming myself before I blame others. In this case, fans, of which I am one.

[Veritas]

I said a couple of weeks ago that I was going to stay out of these arguments for a variety of reasons. I've tried for the most part.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Anyone that thinks Gene or Brent or anything remotely resembling the 80s and 90s needs to have their heads examined. Not happening folks, and if you want someone to blame, then look in the mirror and blame your freaking self because we are losing the baseball arms race and it's because of lack of support. You want better? Open your wallet BEFORE we go to CWS, not after. That's how it works.

Most hear really don't have a particularly good grasp on college athletics.

I've had a great time watching and supporting this program this year. I feel that they've taken a big step forward. Did they max out, so to speak? Clearly no. Is the season over? Clearly no.

I will continue to support them until the season is over.

Am I concerned about the future? Of course. But I have complete confidence that ADDB will do what's best for WSU and WSU Baseball.

Go Shox and go HCTB!

That’s BS. WSU ranked roughly #28 in attendance last year and will probably rank higher this year. I’ve personally flown in for a handful of games and bring others to Eck. We’re on what now... phase 4 or 5 on Eck Stadium?
We all support the program AND the players. Most of us don’t support Butler. Year 5 and the Shox are next to last in the AAC?!?!? That’s a freakin’ joke.
Just stop your doubling down with the guy. It’s embarrassing.

No need for US to look in the mirror. Recommend Butler tries that though.

[ShockerFever]

Oh, and thank you Eric Sexton. Thank you so much.

And I'm actually quite nervous with Boatright in this situation, given his closeness to Sexton.

[ShockTalk]

Wasn't DB the lead on hiring Butler?

[ShockerFever]

Correct.

[Cdizzle]

I said a couple of weeks ago that I was going to stay out of these arguments for a variety of reasons. I've tried for the most part.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Anyone that thinks Gene or Brent or anything remotely resembling the 80s and 90s needs to have their heads examined. Not happening folks, and if you want someone to blame, then look in the mirror and blame your freaking self because we are losing the baseball arms race and it's because of lack of support. You want better? Open your wallet BEFORE we go to CWS, not after. That's how it works.

Most hear really don't have a particularly good grasp on college athletics.

I've had a great time watching and supporting this program this year. I feel that they've taken a big step forward. Did they max out, so to speak? Clearly no. Is the season over? Clearly no.

I will continue to support them until the season is over.

Am I concerned about the future? Of course. But I have complete confidence that ADDB will do what's best for WSU and WSU Baseball.

Go Shox and go HCTB!

2 things.

1. Most of us aren't complaining about it not being the 90s any more. There is a WHOLE LOT of positive territory between the 90s and the last 5 years.

2. If we aren't aspiring for that level of success, and are resigned that it cannot happen again, then we should probably just shut it all down anyway. It may be hard, it may be extremely unlikely, but that should at least be the aspiration. The 'it's harder now and we can't do better' pity-party is not the correct approach for the athletic department. Keep looking for the right person. The person who wants their shot to shove it up everybody else's arse when told it can't be done. WSU has had those guys before. Heck, they have a couple of them right now.

[WuDrWu]

1. Fair enough, but when being in the mix for an at large isn't enough then I would argue that expectations are 90s based. And yes, there is a whole lot of positive territory. The landscape however, ESPECIALLY in the Midwest, in our #1 recruiting area, has vastly changed. 10 years is a VERY long time. 20 is a generation.

2. Aspirations are there, but changing things because results aren't, when the direction is good, isn't, in my opinion, the answer. I agree about the "right" person....no doubt TED FREAKING BREDEHOFT made a great hire in 1977. So did ADJS in 2008. Not every decision was perfect. Our next basketball coach, whenever it happens, basically has no chance. And perhaps, just perhaps, that's the point here.

3. It's never mentioned, but it's not only about winning and losing. It's MOSTLY about it, but not all.

[ShockerExpress]

2 things.

1. Most of us aren't complaining about it not being the 90s any more. There is a WHOLE LOT of positive territory between the 90s and the last 5 years.

2. If we aren't aspiring for that level of success, and are resigned that it cannot happen again, then we should probably just shut it all down anyway. It may be hard, it may be extremely unlikely, but that should at least be the aspiration. The 'it's harder now and we can't do better' pity-party is not the correct approach for the athletic department. Keep looking for the right person. The person who wants their shot to shove it up everybody else's arse when told it can't be done. WSU has had those guys before. Heck, they have a couple of them right now.

Yeah - I have a lot of issues with this, the same as Fever and everyone else. I always respect your opinion, Doc. You are one of the most - if not the most - level headed on here.

But, fans did not do this to Wichita State baseball, and there is A LOT of room between the last 5 years and the 1990s.

[ABC]

This probably belongs in the "What is acceptable" thread. But of course there I agree about that there is a lot of daylight between the 1990s and the last five years. A LOT. Year in and year out, we should be in contention for at-large berths and conference championships. If we can do that in basketball we can do it in baseball. I never completely understand the arguments about how so many more schools are putting $$ into baseball, blah blah blah. And???

It some ways Stephenson was lucky with having so much top-talent in his back yard. Think about all of the great players just from the Wichita-area: Dreifort, Pelfrey, Wimmer, Billy Hall, Randy Young, Mike Jones etc.

[WuDrWu]

And almost no other program to fight for those recruits....or ones in Oklahoma, during most of those years.

[ABC]

Maybe we are saying the same thing, I don't know. But OU won a national championship in 1994, and made a few other CWS appearances and Ok State made CWS appearance during the same general time frame. Times have change but they haven't changed so much that WSU doesn't make the NCAA tournament.

[Topshock]

I said a couple of weeks ago that I was going to stay out of these arguments for a variety of reasons. I've tried for the most part.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Anyone that thinks Gene or Brent or anything remotely resembling the 80s and 90s needs to have their heads examined. Not happening folks, and if you want someone to blame, then look in the mirror and blame your freaking self because we are losing the baseball arms race and it's because of lack of support. You want better? Open your wallet BEFORE we go to CWS, not after. That's how it works.

Most hear really don't have a particularly good grasp on college athletics.

Well aren't you an arrogant little SOB.

When it comes to baseball I'm a casual fan, but this type of attitude reminds me of the crap I heard people spouting about the basketball program before MT was hired. He was hired and the narrative was marginally better with him telling the fan base the best the program could hope for was an NCAA birth every 4 or 5 years and if everything went perfect maybe even win a game or two.

JS hired GM and changed all that looser talk and proved that if people don't give in to mediocrity, excellence can be achieved.

[WuDrWu]

Thank you. Arrogant SOB is clearly what I'm going for here.

I'm glad you're a casual fan. The kind that will gladly go to a regional tournament game when we're hosting, right?

I agree with you, EXCEPT that I will emphasize that excellence CAN be achieved, it doesn't mean it has to, and by no means is guaranteed.

[1972Shocker]

Well aren't you an arrogant little SOB.

When it comes to baseball I'm a casual fan, but this type of attitude reminds me of the crap I heard people spouting about the basketball program before MT was hired. He was hired and the narrative was marginally better with him telling the fan base the best the program could hope for was an NCAA birth every 4 or 5 years and if everything went perfect maybe even win a game or two.

JS hired GM and changed all that looser talk and proved that if people don't give in to mediocrity, excellence can be achieved.

While I agree that WuDrWu 's post was a bit on the arrogant side and didn't totally agree with his take I think the personal attack on Doc was gratuitous and unnecessay. Over his 13 years of posting on ShockerNet I think Doc has established he is one of best, if not the best (that would be my vote), contributors to this board.

Maybe this post was a bit on the arrogant side and calling the post arrogant in your opinion is okay. But that is different than calling Doc himself an "arrogant little SOB".

Maybe Doc should win a prize. Congratulations for making the 1 millionth arrogant post in Shockernet history.

If Doc occasionally gets up in his high horse perhaps he is entitled. After all he probably has the highest horse of anyone on Shockernet.

Some posters perhaps deserve to be personally attacked. I don't beleive WuDrWu is one of those. He has earned more respect than that not only as a Shockernet contributor but as one of the very best Shocker Fans out there.

All in my humble opinion of course.

[Topshock]

On the basketball side I'm an arrogant SOB sometimes also, it's not that big of insult.

[Shocker85]

WSU playing a top 25 team in an important conference must win series and attendance was 2504, 2276, 1713. I don't believe there are any expectation for this program any more.

Do you honestly think there were even close to that many people in the stadium? Apathy has run amok.

None of our season tickets were used and I'll guarantee all were counted.

Butler is killing this program ... but that's another thread.

[SB Shock]

Do you honestly think there were even close to that many people in the stadium? Apathy has run amok.

None of our season tickets were used and I'll guarantee all were counted.

Butler is killing this program ... but that's another thread.

Nope. I track the attendance and the 1030am numbers I think will give me updated look on how many season tickets have been sold - it looks to be at a all time low.

That is why I said I didn’t believe there are any fan expectations. Nobody believes in this program any more.

Only way for this program to bring fans back now is too be good enough to host a regional and maybe even a super regional. Or maybe hire a new coach that fans love right off the start (Hooper might be that guy).

[Play Angry]

Well aren't you an arrogant little SOB.

Over the top and uncalled for.

[ShockTalk]

I said a couple of weeks ago that I was going to stay out of these arguments for a variety of reasons. I've tried for the most part.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Anyone that thinks Gene or Brent or anything remotely resembling the 80s and 90s needs to have their heads examined. Not happening folks, and if you want someone to blame, then look in the mirror and blame your freaking self because we are losing the baseball arms race and it's because of lack of support. You want better? Open your wallet BEFORE we go to CWS, not after. That's how it works.

Most hear really don't have a particularly good grasp on college athletics.

I've had a great time watching and supporting this program this year. I feel that they've taken a big step forward. Did they max out, so to speak? Clearly no. Is the season over? Clearly no.

I will continue to support them until the season is over.

Am I concerned about the future? Of course. But I have complete confidence that ADDB will do what's best for WSU and WSU Baseball.

Go Shox and go HCTB!

Open your wallet BEFORE we go to CWS, not after? First, I don't believe anyone is talking about CWS, but how about "At-Large" worthy team? We haven't had one in 10 years. I wonder if any school has thrown as much money at its baseball program in the last 10 years and not had ONE at-large worthy team? Heck, I wonder if any school has had more attendance over those 10 years and not had an at-large team.

Yes, we went to 2 regionals during that time by backing into them while in the MVC and promptly got sent home. Now we're in the AAC, a true baseball conference and it should be much harder to repeat that type of "success".

I'd sure like to see how much each of the current roster of AAC teams have spent on baseball over the last 10 years. I'll venture a guess not more than us and I'll bet there's a few at-large worth teams in there.

Do I want the current team, and coaches, to do well? Absolutely. Just as I did during the 90s in basketball as I sat through those games. That doesn't mean I can't believe (and know) we could do much better. I've met Coach Butler and I like him. I met Coach Thompson and liked him, too. How many years did he, Cohen, and R. Smithson get?

Butler is most likely safe due to our financial constraints (money left behind, money not partaking of), so he will most likely have another year to prove that this year was indeed a big step forward..... or not. Sorry for my skepticism for next year, but the second half of this year (so far) has taken a big drop from the first half.

[Play Angry]

Nope. I track the attendance and the 1030am numbers I think will give me updated look on how many season tickets have been sold - it looks to be at a all time low.

That is why I said I didn’t believe there are any fan expectations. Nobody believes in this program any more.

Only way for this program to bring fans back now is too be good enough to host a regional and maybe even a super regional. Or maybe hire a new coach that fans love right off the start (Hooper might be that guy).

Butler will almost certainly be back next season IMO, but any successor coach will have a very short honeymoon (even Hooper) when it comes to fan support unless they win big and do it within 2 years.

Basketball had a core of ~5,000 "Stallworth faithful" who would come out during the deepest, darkest depths of the 90s.

Baseball seems to have a core of only about 500 folks who do the same. Of the ~1600 season tickets, I would estimate ~1000 of those (the majority of the unused on a per game basis) are corporate seats.

A splash hire will rejuvenate interest for a year or two, but without .700+ win percentages we'll see a quick bleed back to the 500 attendees mark for butts in seats. Our baseball fans will bristle at the characterization of being fairweather, but when most have averaged a game or two a year (maybe 5% of home games) over the course of a decade (huge sample size), it rings true. We were projected to be a regional team until the last 2+ weeks of this season and the in-person numbers during home games (albeit depressed by poor weather) were downright putrid - WSU baseball fans will not show up for just a Top 50 team, it will need to be Top 15-20 with some regularity before they come back out.

The bones are there for a relatively quick rebuild but the job is a challenging one - big expectations from a dwindling army of fans, most of whom have dropped maybe a hundred bucks in aggregate on Shocker baseball since 2010. Hopefully we can get some of the old mojo back soon regardless of leadership but I generally think it will be in spite of our broader fanbase and not because of it (the core couple hundred donors notwithstanding).

[Cdizzle]

Butler will almost certainly be back next season IMO, but any successor coach will have a very short honeymoon (even Hooper) when it comes to fan support unless they win big and do it within 2 years.

Basketball had a core of ~5,000 "Stallworth faithful" who would come out during the deepest, darkest depths of the 90s.

Baseball seems to have a core of only about 500 folks who do the same. Of the ~1600 season tickets, I would estimate ~1000 of those (the majority of the unused on a per game basis) are corporate seats.

A splash hire will rejuvenate interest for a year or two, but without .700+ win percentages we'll see a quick bleed back to the 500 attendees mark for butts in seats. Our baseball fans will bristle at the characterization of being fairweather, but when most have averaged a game or two a year (maybe 5% of home games) over the course of a decade (huge sample size), it rings true. We were projected to be a regional team until the last 2+ weeks of this season and the in-person numbers during home games (albeit depressed by poor weather) were downright putrid - WSU baseball fans will not show up for just a Top 50 team, it will need to be Top 15-20 with some regularity before they come back out.

The bones are there for a relatively quick rebuild but the job is a challenging one - big expectations from a dwindling army of fans, most of whom have dropped maybe a hundred bucks in aggregate on Shocker baseball since 2010. Hopefully we can get some of the old mojo back soon regardless of leadership but I generally think it will be in spite of our broader fanbase and not because of it (the core couple hundred donors notwithstanding).

I'm not sure I agree with this assessment (reasoned as it is). Comparing basketball and baseball attendance is a very tricky idea. Weather is SUCH a significant factor. I'll grant that it's also an excuse. But I'm a pretty big WSU baseball fan, and in the best of times I'm guessing I will only make it out to 10-ish games a year. To me, that's just how baseball attendance works. I can't go spend 4 hours at the ballpark 3 times a week.

Regarding fans not supporting a Top 50 team, I feel like many of us are on "fool me 4 times" level of skepticism. The computer numbers said one thing, and a lot of us who have watched this trainwreck for the last 4 years said "I hope so, but I'm not buying it yet." And frankly, that is justified based the past several years, and proven out by the past 2 months. You made a simple, but great post in the game thread yesterday, about "this is frustrating." This has been frustrating for a long time. Frustration on top of frustration on top of frustration gets difficult to accept. Baseball is also very interesting because it is easier as a fan to assess singular coaching decisions than in other sports. This happens at all levels. Fans hammer away on managers for things like continually hitting Escobar at the top of the Royals order. When the offense sucks, the fans look right. When the team wins a WS, the manager looks right. So far, there have been an abundance of "hitting Escobar 1" head-scratchers countered by a dearth of success.

I haven't been to a game this season. They ALMOST fooled me for a 4th time but by the time the weather and my schedule worked, that illusion had passed. If Butler is the coach next season, I highly doubt I attend a game next season. If someone else is the coach next season, I expect I will make it out to several games to demonstrate support. I understand that it takes time to rebuild a team/program. But if in year 5, given resources in-line with your competition, you're still landing in the bottom half of your conference....it's time (maybe past time) to assess what is best for the program. And I hope with a lot less "guys this is hard, we could do worse, you don't know how this works" and a lot more "we'll keep trying until we fix this" than has been evident around the program and on this board.


This all leads to an important question that I think we've all been dancing around the past year or so:

How does Joe Public demonstrate both support for the program, and that current performance is not acceptable?


Joe Public shows support by buying tickets and going to games. Maybe chipping in his drop in the pond for fundraising efforts. Joe Public can't afford to do things like offer buyout money to demonstrate his frustration.