The Flaming Burning Stinking & Predictable Disaster that is Creighton Basketball

[SHOCKvalue]

I threw the terms "mid major" and "high major" into this magic internet wiz bang thingy called Google, and it told me the highest concentration of those two terms in all the history of the interwebs is some site called bluejayunderground.com.

Who-da-thunk?

[ShockTalk]

I think there may have been a general misunderstanding of who made the big east a big deal. When most of what made it a big time conference left, the draw also left. It's still a good conference, but it's more of a good, high/midmajor conference. In other words, it may be the BEST mid major conference but it is still mid major now. It's just not going to draw the same audience as it would have if it still had all of its big schools that left.

I think it's realistic to at least hope the MVC can produce a decently similar strength in some years. I really doubt the current big east will always be as good as it is this season.
... And even in this really good season, they apparently aren't drawing so well. Interesting. So it will probably only get worse.

What's hurting the Big East is losing the teams that had fan drawing power, not that they're not still an excellent conference (boy, I about gagged when I typed that). They are currently the 2nd best conference by RPI. They have the best balance from top to bottom of any conference. All the P5 conferences have at least one team that has a lower RPI than Creighton and 7 of the 10 Big East teams have an RPI 65 or better. The BE's problem is that Villanova is the only star program this year (Top 10/15).

The question for their future is whether than can continue to draw top recruits without having that bucket load of high profile, fan drawing teams.

It may be realistic to at least hope, but not so realistic to actually happen that the MVC will rival the Big East. The Valley simply has too many low budget schools.

[Dave Stalwart]

What's hurting the Big East is losing the teams that had fan drawing power, not that they're not still an excellent conference (boy, I about gagged when I typed that). They are currently the 2nd best conference by RPI. They have the best balance from top to bottom of any conference. All the P5 conferences have at least one team that has a lower RPI than Creighton and 7 of the 10 Big East teams have an RPI 65 or better. The BE's problem is that Villanova is the only star program this year (Top 10/15).

The question for their future is whether than can continue to draw top recruits without having that bucket load of high profile, fan drawing teams.

It may be realistic to at least hope, but not so realistic to actually happen that the MVC will rival the Big East. The Valley simply has too many low budget schools.

Where I was coming from is that I think this current year for the big east is actually going to be a really good year by their own standards. For example, DePaul is not bad this year. I would guess that over the next few years, most of them won't be as strong overall. I think this big east will generally be more of a 4th-8th kind of conference. I also think that in good years, the MVC can be 6th-9th. I meant that I think it's realistic to hope that the MVC will be similar if it can keep some good coaches and get programs going a little bit. Next year could be one of those years, actually. Now that the torch has been passed to UNI and they are a permanent top 25 every season going forward, with no drop off ever, and Evansville returns a good senior class, #15 Illinois St has the most talent in the league, Indiana St is stabilizing out, Loyola is beginning to build around Doyle and even Drake and Bradley are showing signs of life... Okay some of that was a joke... It's possible the MVC could continue to improve.

I readily admit the big east is better, even with its current, weaker group of schools compared to what it used to have. I'm just saying it's going to be within striking distance a lot more often than some other, stronger conferences.

[ShockTalk]

Where I was coming from is that I think this current year for the big east is actually going to be a really good year by their own standards. For example, DePaul is not bad this year. I would guess that over the next few years, most of them won't be as strong overall. I think this big east will generally be more of a 4th-8th kind of conference. I also think that in good years, the MVC can be 6th-9th. I meant that I think it's realistic to hope that the MVC will be similar if it can keep some good coaches and get programs going a little bit. Next year could be one of those years, actually. Now that the torch has been passed to UNI and they are a permanent top 25 every season going forward, with no drop off ever, and Evansville returns a good senior class, #15 Illinois St has the most talent in the league, Indiana St is stabilizing out, Loyola is beginning to build around Doyle and even Drake and Bradley are showing signs of life... Okay some of that was a joke... It's possible the MVC could continue to improve.

I readily admit the big east is better. I'm just saying it's going to be with striking distance a lot more often than some other conferences.

Totally agree with your assessment of the Big East. I think it will normally be difficult for that many of their teams to do so well. On the other hand, I also think Marquette and Creighton will generally be better than they are this year.

With Creighton gone and former top teams like SIU and Bradley struggling so, I'm not sure anything better than 8th is possible. The Valley best chance to improve as a conference is to have no team below 250 RPI and, with only 10 teams, no more than 2, maybe 3, below 200 and to have 4 teams solidly in the top 100. Don't know if the Valley still has the fire power to have 3 teams regularly in the top 50.

[The Mad Hatter]

What's hurting the Big East is losing the teams that had fan drawing power, not that they're not still an excellent conference (boy, I about gagged when I typed that). They are currently the 2nd best conference by RPI. They have the best balance from top to bottom of any conference. All the P5 conferences have at least one team that has a lower RPI than Creighton and 7 of the 10 Big East teams have an RPI 65 or better. The BE's problem is that Villanova is the only star program this year (Top 10/15).

The question for their future is whether than can continue to draw top recruits without having that bucket load of high profile, fan drawing teams.

It may be realistic to at least hope, but not so realistic to actually happen that the MVC will rival the Big East. The Valley simply has too many low budget schools.

Fundamentally, I think that they vastly underestimated the dangers of a private school only conference (as did Fox) in terms of fan interest that stem from two sources:

1. Enrollment is just generally lower at private schools which means a smaller alumni base. It may be a wealthy base, but when it comes to TV ratings, the income of the viewer doesn't matter but numbers do. Here is a comparison of total conference enrollment for the BE, MVC, and B12 (all 10 member leagues):

Conference	Enrollment
Big East	118,581
MVC	128,429
Big 12	280,306

2. Beyond the enrollment numbers, the reality is that private schools have a harder time building their fanbase beyond their alumni base because they do not have the community institution draw that public schools do. It is just a lot harder to build civic pride support for a private institution than for a public one. Those fans watching out of civic pride may not be the core of the fanbase, but it can add up to a lot of casual viewers.

The advantage for the private institutions is that they can make up for fanbase size by having a lot of money in many cases. The Big East won't have to deal with public schools that are facing state budget cuts, and for now they have the big Fox TV contract, and they have that for another decade, but eventually that well will run dry if they can't change the fan interest dynamics.

[ShockTalk]

Fundamentally, I think that they vastly underestimated the dangers of a private school only conference (as did Fox) in terms of fan interest that stem from two sources:

1. Enrollment is just generally lower at private schools which means a smaller alumni base. It may be a wealthy base, but when it comes to TV ratings, the income of the viewer doesn't matter but numbers do. Here is a comparison of total conference enrollment for the BE, MVC, and B12 (all 10 member leagues):

Conference	Enrollment
Big East	118,581
MVC	128,429
Big 12	280,306

2. Beyond the enrollment numbers, the reality is that private schools have a harder time building their fanbase beyond their alumni base because they do not have the community institution draw that public schools do. It is just a lot harder to build civic pride support for a private institution than for a public one. Those fans watching out of civic pride may not be the core of the fanbase, but it can add up to a lot of casual viewers.

The advantage for the private institutions is that they can make up for fanbase size by having a lot of money in many cases. The Big East won't have to deal with public schools that are facing state budget cuts, and for now they have the big Fox TV contract, and they have that for another decade, but eventually that well will run dry if they can't change the fan interest dynamics.

I think we're on the same wave length. From a popularity point of view, losing long time member Syracuse and newer members Louisville and Notre Dame, while kicking to the curb Connecticut and Cincinnati hurt big time. The popularity, enrollment, and endowments of these schools are way above what is mostly left and what has been added. Not that they were all achieved while in the old Big East, but the conference could boast of 13 NCAA championships. That's now down to 3.

The only way the new Big East grows in popularity is to be very successful and highly visible. That means they must have great success on the recruiting trails. I don't know if they can.

[WSUwatcher]

It's pretty striking when the Valley, with small (and largely unknown) schools like Evansville, Drake, Loyola, and Bradley, has a larger total enrollment than the Big East with its high profile private school names. How many people do you suppose would guess that to be the case? It certainly took me by surprise.

[SHOCKvalue]

It's pretty striking when the Valley, with small (and largely unknown) schools like Evansville, Drake, Loyola, and Bradley, has a larger total enrollment than the Big East with its high profile private school names. How many people do you suppose would guess that to be the case? It certainly took me by surprise.

Most of the MVC publics are actually not small schools, enrollment wise. While UNI and WSU are sort of in mid-sized no mans land, the remainder are not far off from a K-State type enrollment.

[ShockTalk]

Most of the MVC publics are actually not small schools, enrollment wise. While UNI and WSU are sort of in mid-sized no mans land, the remainder are not far off from a K-State type enrollment.

Well, sort of. I guess that depends on what "not far off" means. From US News Oct 2014, Ill St had the largest enrollment for the Valley at 20,706, MSU 20,629, SIU 18,847, Loyola (private) 15,720, WSU 14,893. Kansas State reported 2014 fall enrollment at 24,766 which is larger than Ok St and half as close to KU than to any MVC school.

[Shocker-maniac]

Well, sort of. I guess that depends on what "not far off" means. From US News Oct 2014, Ill St had the largest enrollment for the Valley at 20,706, MSU 20,629, SIU 18,847, Loyola (private) 15,720, WSU 14,893. Kansas State reported 2014 fall enrollment at 24,766 which is larger than Ok St and half as close to KU than to any MVC school.

Those must be enrollment numbers from 2013, as WSU's announced enrollment in Fall of 2014 was over 15K. Please see WSUPoised for Growth in off topics forum for details.

[kstarheel]

Their failure will always bring me great joy.

[Kel Varnsen]

http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/big-east-basketball-scoring-foxfox-sports-1.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=big-east-basketball-scoring-foxfox-sports-1

This read was enjoyable.

[pogo]

http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/big-...oxfox-sports-1

This read was enjoyable.

Whodathunk? I would bet the Fox exec that thought he had a coup when he signed the big least to a lucrative tv deal is either gone or on a very short tight leash.

[shoxlax]

So this is what has evolved in Omaha:

http://omaha.craigslist.org/tix/4884418603.html

LMFAO

[Shocker-maniac]

So this is what has evolved in Omaha:

http://omaha.craigslist.org/tix/4884418603.html

LMFAO

Haha I wonder when the 2 for 1 groupons start?