Charlottesville riots

[Walker]

Here's the fundamental problem with that logic: That flag was created explicitly as the battle flag of the Confederate States of America, a nation that was explicitly created for the purpose of perpetuating the enslavement of black people. It has no other meaning, it didn't exist before, it's not a case of the swastika that was taken by the Nazis and is actually a religious symbol of peace. It literally only existed for a short time to represent a shitty system. Just because it was acceptable in the 70's/80's doesn't mean we should just tolerate it now, we never grow and evolve if we do. Those monuments now only serve as icons for people with radical ideals, they severed a purpose back then when created to memorialize the fallen, they do no longer. Opening what old wounds??? No one surviving fought in the war, no one surviving had parents who fought in the war, and very very few people if any even have grandparents who fought in the war. Isn't this type of upset the same type of things that the right likes to call out people on the left for? The left gets hammered for wanting safe spaces from confronting things, and now we need to protect people from having to take a serious look at what their ancestors did? Yessh.

What old wounds? The wounds President Lincoln talked about in this quote;

"With Malice towards non, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds."

The old wounds of sectional conflict that we once again see coming to the surface. Yes, there are no survivors of the War, but there is cultural and identity within the South that these monuments and icons are a part of. Tearing these monuments down is just giving a rise to sectional conflict once again. I think it's going to cultivate more hostility and give rise extremism because there's growing sentiment that their culture is under attack, and they are demonized while they defend it, meanwhile every other culture is free to act in its self interest.

With all due respect, I don't think your safe spaces comment makes much sense. Feminists, SJW students or any other entity that talk about safe spaces, want safe spaces from the things that offend them. The very people tearing down the monuments, are the people who are seeking safe spaces from the monuments that offend them.

I know my opinion of this is probably very unpopular, but I hope nobody thinks I'm some racist nazi, because I'm not. I just think we're quick label our fellow countrymen without seeing their perspective and I think sometimes things are done with good intentions, but end up with unintended consequences. I think that is exactly what is happening in our country right now.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

What old wounds? The wounds President Lincoln talked about in this quote;

"With Malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds."


The old wounds of sectional conflict that we once again see coming to the surface. Yes, there are no survivors of the War, but there is cultural and identity within the South that these monuments and icons are a part of. Tearing these monuments down is just giving a rise to sectional conflict once again. I think it's going to cultivate more hostility and give rise extremism because there's growing sentiment that their culture is under attack, and they are demonized while they defend it, meanwhile every other culture is free to act in its self interest.

With all due respect, I don't think your safe spaces comment makes much sense. Feminists, SJW students or any other entity that talk about safe spaces, want safe spaces from the things that offend them. The very people tearing down the monuments, are the people who are seeking safe spaces from the monuments that offend them.

I know my opinion of this is probably very unpopular, but I hope nobody thinks I'm some racist nazi, because I'm not. I just think we're quick label our fellow countrymen without seeing their perspective and I think sometimes things are done with good intentions, but end up with unintended consequences. I think that is exactly what is happening in our country right now.

I think you would have a point if the Federal government were tearing down the monuments. But in most cases that I am aware of, it is local (Southern) governments deciding to remove the monuments. This is not a sectional conflict.

I admit I do not understand some Southerners who are proud of the Confederacy and at the same time are proud Americans. These two cultures are diametrically opposite, in my opinion. Because I do not understand these Southern sentiments, I have never been opposed to Confederate monuments. I think they should do with them as they see fit. And since they are the very ones deciding to bring them down, I do not oppose that. And if the only ones upset enough about it to be violent are neo-Nazis and white supremacists, then I trust this country has enough decent people to deal with that problem appropriately.

[Walker]

I think you would have a point if the Federal government were tearing down the monuments. But in most cases that I am aware of, it is local (Southern) governments deciding to remove the monuments. This is not a sectional conflict.

I admit I do not understand some Southerners who are proud of the Confederacy and at the same time are proud Americans. These two cultures are diametrically opposite, in my opinion. Because I do not understand these Southern sentiments, I have never been opposed to Confederate monuments. I think they should do with them as they see fit. And since they are the very ones deciding to bring them down, I do not oppose that. And if the only ones upset enough about it to be violent are neo-Nazis and white supremacists, then I trust this country has enough decent people to deal with that problem appropriately.

Amen to that brother.

[ShockerPhi]

Here's the fundamental problem with that logic: That flag was created explicitly as the battle flag of the Confederate States of America, a nation that was explicitly created for the purpose of perpetuating the enslavement of black people. It has no other meaning, it didn't exist before, it's not a case of the swastika that was taken by the Nazis and is actually a religious symbol of peace. It literally only existed for a short time to represent a shitty system. Just because it was acceptable in the 70's/80's doesn't mean we should just tolerate it now, we never grow and evolve if we do. Those monuments now only serve as icons for people with radical ideals, they severed a purpose back then when created to memorialize the fallen, they do no longer. Opening what old wounds??? No one surviving fought in the war, no one surviving had parents who fought in the war, and very very few people if any even have grandparents who fought in the war. Isn't this type of upset the same type of things that the right likes to call out people on the left for? The left gets hammered for wanting safe spaces from confronting things, and now we need to protect people from having to take a serious look at what their ancestors did? Yessh.

This this this this this this this and this again

[BOBB]

I despise these bigoted POS losers, the KKK and their Neo Nazi comrades. I will also not trade a fascist brownshirt for a commie blackshirt. Anti-fascist is a good thing, Antifa is not. Mussolini-Pol Pot, Hitler-Stalin, hard pass on either end of that false choice.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

[pinstripers]

Oh, bullshit. Now you're just making stuff up.

I guess you could re-read your post, you cranky old coot.

[pinstripers]

A hundred years ago, local govt put up a statue. (I'm ok w that)

Recently, local govt decided to take down the statue. (still ok)

Some folks wanted to protest that. (still ok, as long as the have their permit)

Some other folks wanted to protest the protesters (seems silly, but if they have their permit....)

The local police were told to stand down (I'm not ok with this at all and wonder why this was done)

[wufan]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there. If you read Breitbart and believe everything they say, then yes, you might think leftists group all conservatives with white supremacists.

However, if you actually know a few leftists, and have the ability to discern propaganda from real news, then you'll know this is not even remotely true. Not even close.

This kind of polarization--where we believe everyone of a particular political persuasion buys into all of its extremist rhetoric--is what is killing our country right now.

So I would say that leftists that spew propaganda (AntiFa) does do this. Not all leftists. My wife's high school friend posted on Facebook, "shame on all who voted for Trump. You know this is what you wanted."

[shockmonster]

There is little room for moderate ideology and thought. To lump Robert E. Lee with Nathaniel Bedford Forrest and then lump George Washington and Jefferson in with them too shows a total lack of perspective and knowledge of history and academia (who are liberal) who do this should not be an superior.

[wufan]

I have all kinds of problems with AntiFa. For those not in the know, this is the group that wears bandannas and ski masks and counter protests "hate speech" (often at free speech rallies) via mob veto. They use bull horns in people's ears, pull fire alarms, make human shields to block entries, throw fire crackers and smoke bombs, and use pepper spray. Their biggest problem is that they can't separate hate speech from free speech, and they can't separate fascists from legislators. I am never on their side.

I am also never on the side of the white nationalists or alt-right. At Charlottesville, it was the white nationalists that went above and beyond. No level of antagonism should provoke violence. Protests need to be peaceful, organized, and planned. I will support no group that will not abide by that.

I'm not sure if the police acted correctly or not at all. I do expect the police to keep the piece and protect the rights of peaceful protesters. Anyone that gives orders counter to that is not helping the situation.

[pinstripers]

So you read somewhere that it was the Nazis that started the violence. I have been unable to find out who started it

[shocka khan]

I have all kinds of problems with AntiFa. For those not in the know, this is the group that wears bandannas and ski masks and counter protests "hate speech" (often at free speech rallies) via mob veto. They use bull horns in people's ears, pull fire alarms, make human shields to block entries, throw fire crackers and smoke bombs, and use pepper spray. Their biggest problem is that they can't separate hate speech from free speech, and they can't separate fascists from legislators. I am never on their side.

I am also never on the side of the white nationalists or alt-right. At Charlottesville, it was the white nationalists that went above and beyond. No level of antagonism should provoke violence. Protests need to be peaceful, organized, and planned. I will support no group that will not abide by that.

I'm not sure if the police acted correctly or not at all. I do expect the police to keep the piece and protect the rights of peaceful protesters. Anyone that gives orders counter to that is not helping the situation.

I have to confess I have not read this entire thread, but I am really hoping you're not equivocating and excusing what happened.

Today's discussion should not be about what we dislike on the left and the various attributes we want to assign to them. Today's discussion should be what we, as a nation, are going to do about right-wing racist groups, not anyone on the left.

Something needs to be done about this. I think there are legitimate grievances, but the root of the problem was what the perpretrator did and who encouraged him to do it.

[shocka khan]

So you read somewhere that it was the Nazis that started the violence. I have been unable to find out who started it

I think you flunked reading comprehension in school if we are to believe this statement.

[pinstripers]

http://www.tmz.com/2017/08/14/charlottesville-car-attack-drone-video/

[pinstripers]

I think you flunked reading comprehension in school if we are to believe this statement.

Link me