Charlottesville riots

[wu_shizzle]

So we are gonna go full tinfoil and say he was a plant? Or we can apply Occam's razor and think logically that these "rumors" which is all that mentions were just made up by people within the org who don't like him.

Can you find a record of this guy's involvement in Alt- right activities before Trump was elected?

[WuDrWu]

These people absolutely are racist and scum. Of course, not everyone who hangs a confederate flag on their pickup or supports statues like this one of Robert E. Lee is a white supremacist - most are not, obviously. These ones were, however.

There is no need for "But, the left doesn't condemn...." or "Hey, not everyone that likes Robert E. Lee is racist!" These people claimed that they are acting to fulfill the President's wishes. Unfair to the President? Yep, almost certainly. Nonetheless, what an easy opportunity to follow in Reagan's footsteps and call these people out for what they are, and make clear that they have no welcome in our club. It was an opportunity missed - as usual, VP Pence's statements in his interview yesterday evening were what the President should have said and will pretend that he did say in reflective moments on the matter.

There needs to be no home for Richard Spencer or David Duke in the Republican Party or conservative movement. Let the left worry about excluding their own fringe - its inclusion is ultimately more destructive than beneficial.

So well stated, and highlighted for exclamation. I know many on the Right that claim it's up to (fill in the blank) group to clean their own house. I agree. Yet here are people that are stating they are doing the Right's work. Bullshit. They aren't doing President Trump's bidding and they sure as hell aren't doing mine or any other GOP'er I know.

This is a fringe lunatic fractional group that should be called out. Are there others on the left? YES and they should be called out when they do something, no doubt. But this is the same thing. VP Pence's words were just about perfect for me. I wish our President had said them. I'm sure the press and the left would still excoriate him if he had, but that's hardly the point. I understand the frustration, but there's right and wrong and I want the Right to be right.

[ShockCrazy]

Can you find a record of this guy's involvement in Alt- right activities before Trump was elected?

Can you find any of him on the left? Stop with the freaking tinfoil. This man chose to identify himself with a bigoted stance and all it entailed, and you think he did it as a subversion for what reason??? It's not like the vast majority don't find them disgusting to begin with, he isn't subverting some legitimate cause with a large base of support that had to be broken from the inside. Man this is stupid I even have to argue this.

Hell let's pretend he did some some stupid ass fantasy land. To what end? He joined the group to do what? Make them look bad? They already do that. Has he caused them to represent something other than their previous ideology? And then lets assess the risk if he really didn't believe this way... He's forever a racist and a piece of scum, who accomplished what exactly?

[Walker]

There seems to be a frustrating disconnect here.

Thousands of out-of-state white supremacist activists flocked to Charlottesville to protest the removal of a statue and renaming of a park by local, democratically elected city leaders. They came prepared for and committed to violent confrontation, and it played out exactly that way. These were not peaceful Ghandi followers performing a sit in who were malevolently attacked without fault of their own. They chose violence as an avenue to seek to deny government action at the local level, deemed constitutional under the Commonwealth of Virginia without challenge in courts. One of the members of this group committed an act of domestic terrorism which resulted in the murder of a young woman and the hospitalization of 19 others.

These people absolutely are racist and scum. Of course, not everyone who hangs a confederate flag on their pickup or supports statues like this one of Robert E. Lee is a white supremacist - most are not, obviously. These ones were, however.

The Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial are in no danger of removal. These were not nefarious, overreaching federal agencies taking unwanted action on an electorate without consent. Quite the opposite - here, you have some apologists speaking out against the enforcement of state and local rights in defense of those from outside that electorate who chose violent confrontation as their method of choice to deter these actions.

There is no need for "But, the left doesn't condemn...." or "Hey, not everyone that likes Robert E. Lee is racist!" These people claimed that they are acting to fulfill the President's wishes. Unfair to the President? Yep, almost certainly. Nonetheless, what an easy opportunity to follow in Reagan's footsteps and call these people out for what they are, and make clear that they have no welcome in our club. It was an opportunity missed - as usual, VP Pence's statements in his interview yesterday evening were what the President should have said and will pretend that he did say in reflective moments on the matter.

There needs to be no home for Richard Spencer or David Duke in the Republican Party or conservative movement. Let the left worry about excluding their own fringe - its inclusion is ultimately more destructive than beneficial.

I agree with you that there should be no home for Spencer or Duke within the conservative movement or any racist assholes, but I think now matter how much disavowing or rebuking is done, the media and left will always place conservatives in that same group. It's like the media thinks "Hitler used double ply toilet paper, and our sources confirm that there was double ply toilet paper in the west wing, so Trump and his supporters must be nazis."

I disagree about the Washington and Jefferson monuments though. If they can take down Southern monuments because they are deemed racist, then they have ammunition to take down any monuments commemorating our history at that point.

You're right though about these people in Charlottesville though. A large portion of them were detestable, racist people and it resulted in a young woman losing her life and many others being injured, and that should be at the forefront. Myself, and I'd guess probably most of us are worried about our country and the growing divide in it. I think it'll be unfairly attributed to Trump, but I think this has been festering for a long time.

[Walker]

So they know it and still support the use of the flag and other monuments... That leaves us with one option you want to ignore.

I absolutely abhor the argument you use at the end and it's reprehensible because it denies accountability in the name of others failings. We aren't the only ones beholden to our mistakes. But we can't change how other countries behave, we can control how we behave and what we find acceptable.

Which option am I wanting to ignore? Most southerners know slavery is horrible and know it was right for it to end. That flag to them, represents their heritage. There was a time in our country where people even in the North knew that, otherwise shows like Dukes of Hazzard would have never been so popular. Now people lose their s*** if they see the General Lee http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/24/wo...ard-car-video/

I agree with you, we should be accountable for mistakes, but erasing history isn't accountability. I also don't think the Orwellian idea "re-education" and tearing down monuments does anything but grow the already large divide that exists.

The federal government paid for many of the monuments in the South during reconstruction as a way to show good will, commemorate their fallen ones, and heal the divide of a broken nation. Forcing people to throw their history and heritage away is opening old wounds.

[Play Angry]

I agree with you that there should be no home for Spencer or Duke within the conservative movement or any racist assholes, but I think now matter how much disavowing or rebuking is done, the media and left will always place conservatives in that same group. It's like the media thinks "Hitler used double ply toilet paper, and our sources confirm that there was double ply toilet paper in the west wing, so Trump and his supporters must be nazis."

I disagree about the Washington and Jefferson monuments though. If they can take down Southern monuments because they are deemed racist, then they have ammunition to take down any monuments commemorating our history at that point.

You're right though about these people in Charlottesville though. A large portion of them were detestable, racist people and it resulted in a young woman losing her life and many others being injured, and that should be at the forefront. Myself, and I'd guess probably most of us are worried about our country and the growing divide in it. I think it'll be unfairly attributed to Trump, but I think this has been festering for a long time.

I appreciate your post and am not aiming to be difficult, but I still don't get the bolded. Charlottesville is a liberal town, and although I don't agree with most of their elected officials' views, they should have the right to act within their authority, including construction and removal of statues in city parks like this one. That doesn't speak to the removal of federal or local monuments elsewhere.

If the argument is that this is just Step 1 in a nationwide trend and nothing sacred is safe, I think that's a bridge too far and the shield against its spread is simple: these officials are subject to replacement by their voters and will not act against in a way that ensures their own displacement. Conservative towns are gonna do conservative things, and liberal towns are gonna do liberal things. The views of the electorate will ultimately dictate and provide accountability for these types of actions.

If people disagree with proposals like the removal in Charlottesville, they should aim to be persuasive and convince others of the merits of their argument.

[pinstripers]

Condemnation =/= hatred.

Do you think neo-Nazis and BLM are each other's moral equivalents? If yes, why? If not, why not?

Genuinely interested. Your response seemed to indicate that they are equal in your eyes.

Obviously not. But BLM chanting kill cops" makes them a hate group, I think.

[ShockCrazy]

Which option am I wanting to ignore? Most southerners know slavery is horrible and know it was right for it to end. That flag to them, represents their heritage. There was a time in our country where people even in the North knew that, otherwise shows like Dukes of Hazzard would have never been so popular. Now people lose their s*** if they see the General Lee http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/24/wo...ard-car-video/

I agree with you, we should be accountable for mistakes, but erasing history isn't accountability. I also don't think the Orwellian idea "re-education" and tearing down monuments does anything but grow the already large divide that exists.

The federal government paid for many of the monuments in the South during reconstruction as a way to show good will, commemorate their fallen ones, and heal the divide of a broken nation. Forcing people to throw their history and heritage away is opening old wounds.

Here's the fundamental problem with that logic: That flag was created explicitly as the battle flag of the Confederate States of America, a nation that was explicitly created for the purpose of perpetuating the enslavement of black people. It has no other meaning, it didn't exist before, it's not a case of the swastika that was taken by the Nazis and is actually a religious symbol of peace. It literally only existed for a short time to represent a shitty system. Just because it was acceptable in the 70's/80's doesn't mean we should just tolerate it now, we never grow and evolve if we do. Those monuments now only serve as icons for people with radical ideals, they severed a purpose back then when created to memorialize the fallen, they do no longer. Opening what old wounds??? No one surviving fought in the war, no one surviving had parents who fought in the war, and very very few people if any even have grandparents who fought in the war. Isn't this type of upset the same type of things that the right likes to call out people on the left for? The left gets hammered for wanting safe spaces from confronting things, and now we need to protect people from having to take a serious look at what their ancestors did? Yessh.

[MoValley John]

Can you find any of him on the left? Stop with the freaking tinfoil. This man chose to identify himself with a bigoted stance and all it entailed, and you think he did it as a subversion for what reason??? It's not like the vast majority don't find them disgusting to begin with, he isn't subverting some legitimate cause with a large base of support that had to be broken from the inside. Man this is stupid I even have to argue this.

Hell let's pretend he did some some stupid ass fantasy land. To what end? He joined the group to do what? Make them look bad? They already do that. Has he caused them to represent something other than their previous ideology? And then lets assess the risk if he really didn't believe this way... He's forever a racist and a piece of scum, who accomplished what exactly?

He could be a liberal white supremist. Believe it or not, they do exist.

[ShockCrazy]

He could be a liberal white supremist. Believe it or not, they do exist.

He sure could be. My point wasn't regarding his political ideology, which notice I never mentioned. Mostly I was expressing outrage at wu_shizzles implication that somehow he's a pretend racist or something.

[SB Shock]

Alt-right and Alt-left do have something in common. Alt-right hates Jews. Alt-left hates Israel.

[Walker]

I appreciate your post and am not aiming to be difficult, but I still don't get the bolded. Charlottesville is a liberal town, and although I don't agree with most of their elected officials' views, they should have the right to act within their authority, including construction and removal of statues in city parks like this one. That doesn't speak to the removal of federal or local monuments elsewhere.

If the argument is that this is just Step 1 in a nationwide trend and nothing sacred is safe, I think that's a bridge too far and the shield against its spread is simple: these officials are subject to replacement by their voters and will not act against in a way that ensures their own displacement. Conservative towns are gonna do conservative things, and liberal towns are gonna do liberal things. The views of the electorate will ultimately dictate and provide accountability for these types of actions.

If people disagree with proposals like the removal in Charlottesville, they should aim to be persuasive and convince others of the merits of their argument.

That's a pretty good point, and I admit I don't have a good counter to it because if those communities want to do that, put people in charge to do that, then they should be able to do just that.

It just seems that the purging of Confederate monuments that is going on right now is a growing trend that isn't losing any steam. Should federal monuments ever come into question for being removed, many times those decisions don't fall in the hands of a lawmaker beholden to the people, but rather an un-elected bureaucrat that works in one of the 5 trillion agencies within the federal government.

[MoValley John]

He sure could be. My point wasn't regarding his political ideology, which notice I never mentioned. Mostly I was expressing outrage at wu_shizzles implication that somehow he's a pretend racist or something.

I don't think you can pretend to be a racist.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

While there's a tendency for leftists to group all conservatives in with white supremacists...

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there. If you read Breitbart and believe everything they say, then yes, you might think leftists group all conservatives with white supremacists.

However, if you actually know a few leftists, and have the ability to discern propaganda from real news, then you'll know this is not even remotely true. Not even close.

This kind of polarization--where we believe everyone of a particular political persuasion buys into all of its extremist rhetoric--is what is killing our country right now.

[SB Shock]

Alt-right and Alt-left do have something in common. Alt-right hates Jews. Alt-left hates Israel.

And they each hate Law Enforcement (albeit for different reasons)