Trump

[wufan]

Not trying to be difficult, but it seems to have been a thing from much, much earlier than that. Sectarian violence has been around for a few thousand years. Jewish pogroms, persecution of the Huguenots, oppression and disenfranchisement of indigenous people, and so on. Many of those resulted in extermination of the demonized, or dehumanized, targets, as part of strategic moves by the governing powers at local and national levels.

What is special about 1855 to distinguish it from prior exploitation of similar tactics?

Fair question. This country was founded on the belief in the rights of the individual as laid out in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. It was so profoundly laid out such that it gave limited rights to the federal government (so as not to tread on the populous) and left all other rights not named to the states. Many books have been written on the totality of these measures such that I will I trust that there is not a point of contention here. This act was a unique moment in history that left previous acts of violence, oppression, as well as extermination behind; that is, until it was noted with that peoples should not be slaves and that manifest-destiny was a direct assault on Native Americans. That period occurred in the middle of the 19th century (1855 was an approximation), and it pitted two equally important universal truths against each other, ownership of property, and equality of all men.

Since the Civil War, politics and policies have been of a much more civil nature despite disagreement. Both sides were putting forth ideas in good faith, and both sides were mostly trusted by the opposition. That is no longer the case and it is primarily due to the conflict over individuality vs group. The divisiveness of calling out an entire group as moral sinners (oppressors, deplorables, patriarchy, racists, etc) is difficult to overcome, yet it is the required narrative of post-modernism and neomarxism. That said, both sides are truly trying to do what they see as the best for everyone, and we mustn't fall victim to demonization!

That took me quite awhile to attempt to make the point that, group politics are not the only thing that causes demonization; and that this country was founded in such a way that demonization is a rare occurrence.

[Play Angry]

Fair question. This country was founded on the belief in the rights of the individual as laid out in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. It was so profoundly laid out such that it gave limited rights to the federal government (so as not to tread on the populous) and left all other rights not named to the states. Many books have been written on the totality of these measures such that I will I trust that there is not a point of contention here. This act was a unique moment in history that left previous acts of violence, oppression, as well as extermination behind; that is, until it was noted with that peoples should not be slaves and that manifest-destiny was a direct assault on Native Americans. That period occurred in the middle of the 19th century (1855 was an approximation), and it pitted two equally important universal truths against each other, ownership of property, and equality of all men.

Since the Civil War, politics and policies have been of a much more civil nature despite disagreement. Both sides were putting forth ideas in good faith, and both sides were mostly trusted by the opposition. That is no longer the case and it is primarily due to the conflict over individuality vs group. The divisiveness of calling out an entire group as moral sinners (oppressors, deplorables, patriarchy, racists, etc) is difficult to overcome, yet it is the required narrative of post-modernism and neomarxism. That said, both sides are truly trying to do what they see as the best for everyone, and we mustn't fall victim to demonization!

That took me quite awhile to attempt to make the point that, group politics are not the only thing that causes demonization; and that this country was founded in such a way that demonization is a rare occurrence.

That is interesting, but it sounds like the quick and dirty version is that, we used to disenfranchise and/or kill and or attempt to expel our enemies (often by force) for a few thousand years. Now, as a natural byproduct of democracy and the rapid enlargement of the electorate to include previously excluded groups, coupled with advances in travel technology which enabled mass immigration from conflicting cultures in unforeseen numbers, and shifting cultural identities appurtenant to a broad decline in religious participation, we have now internalized those conflicts in a "peaceful" way whereby different identities still hate each other but in the form of awkward political coalitions instead of bouts of brute strength.

Seems like it's an evolution of something extremely old, not the advent of something new.

[wufan]

That is interesting, but it sounds like the quick and dirty version is that, we used to disenfranchise and/or kill and or attempt to expel our enemies (often by force) for a few thousand years. Now, as a natural byproduct of democracy and the rapid enlargement of the electorate to include previously excluded groups, coupled with advances in travel technology which enabled mass immigration from conflicting cultures in unforeseen numbers, and shifting cultural identities appurtenant to a broad decline in religious participation, we have now internalized those conflicts in a "peaceful" way whereby different identities still hate each other but in the form of awkward political coalitions instead of bouts of brute strength.

Seems like it's an evolution of something extremely old, not the advent of something new.

That seems mostly fair, and far more eloquently put than I could manage. A couple of points:

1. This government (a republic) was founded on the importance of the individual. Post modern group politics threatens this ideal, and thereby threatens the relative peacefulness and stability that is inherent within the system. Previous institutions have often utilized hatred of other groups as a rationalization for their exploitation. There is no reasons for different "identities" to hate each other if we rely on the fundamental belief of the sanctity of the individual.

2. We all have the capacity for pure evil. It is innate within us as can be seen through the interviews with Nazi camp guards. These people were not sociopaths, nor were they created as a byproduct of their environment. They were normal people that did absolutely horrible things. We need a universal ethic that is good and positive such that we don't fall victim to this. Post-modernism rejects universal ethics in favor of the struggle for power. Check out the Evergreen fiasco on YouTube for evidence.

As to your final comment; devisiveness between cultures is an extremely old thing, and evolution lead to the idea of the sanctity of the individual. I would say this was the invention of something new that, through all of its flaws, is the best defense against oppression. Threats against the individual seem to be the only thing that causes this level of unrest. The recent post-modern ethic is the first major threat to this country since slavery.

[Play Angry]

I definitely agree that the divisive politics practiced today are a danger to our country's long term survival and short term prosperity. It is a mess and the paralysis caused by the chasm between the two camps doesn't look like it'll improve soon.

[ShockingButTrue]

[pinstripers]

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

-----------------John Quincy Adams

[MoValley John]

@MoValley John: is the other huge advocate of this argument. I just don't get how it's a compelling point.

We go to war with countries all the time. If we're attacked on our soil, you just brush it off since we do it too? The United States has taken a position, for good or bad, that it gets to be the hypocrite in international politics.

I will clarify my point. I will probably wander off course at some point, but I digress... I dont think that it is okay for the United States to interfere with foreign elections. It's bullshit that we do. I don't think that it's okay that other countries interfere with ours, it's also bullshit. But I'm not so naive as to think that it doesn't happen, it happens all of the time. Winston Churchill interfered in our elections to try and draw us into WW-2. Are we outraged?

I would love nothing more than to keep foreign influence out. What we can do constructively is to look at what happened and try to prevent it in the future. Unfortunately, instead of learning from the past election, we are engaging in a non-productive witch hunt. We,are acting like uneducated, blindfolded babies.

I'm not stupid. JD, you're not stupid. Getting bent out of shape now, when we haven't gotten bent out of shape in the past is crazy. Lets work on owning up to our past, Bill Clinton's help from the Chinese, Hillary's help from the Ukraine, Bush's aid, so on and so on. Hell, this has been going on probably close to as far back as Washington crossing the Potomac- On a pony he named Wildfire.

The difference now? Hillary lost. Period. That is the only difference. Hillary lost. A bunch of pink hat wearing, giant vagina costumed zealots are pissed. They are forgetting our not so noble past, their party included, and feigning indignation. Like this never happened before. Give me a break!

Trump may of may not have received help. The Russians absolutely tried. Why don't we try to grow as a people and try to prevent this in the future instead of acting like this has never happened before. Hell, Hillary was working with the Ukranianians, she worked with the DNC to defeat Bernie and much more. Grow up people, get a life and work on prevention, not witch hunts.

[ShockTalk]

I will clarify my point. I will probably wander off course at some point, but I digress... I dont think that it is okay for the United States to interfere with foreign elections. It's bullshit that we do. I don't think that it's okay that other countries interfere with ours, it's also bullshit. But I'm not so naive as to think that it doesn't happen, it happens all of the time. Winston Churchill interfered in our elections to try and draw us into WW-2. Are we outraged?

I would love nothing more than to keep foreign influence out. What we can do constructively is to look at what happened and try to prevent it in the future. Unfortunately, instead of learning from the past election, we are engaging in a non-productive witch hunt. We,are acting like uneducated, blindfolded babies.

I'm not stupid. JD, you're not stupid. Getting bent out of shape now, when we haven't gotten bent out of shape in the past is crazy. Lets work on owning up to our past, Bill Clinton's help from the Chinese, Hillary's help from the Ukraine, Bush's aid, so on and so on. Hell, this has been going on probably close to as far back as Washington crossing the Potomac- On a pony he named Wildfire.

The difference now? Hillary lost. Period. That is the only difference. Hillary lost. A bunch of pink hat wearing, giant vagina costumed zealots are pissed. They are forgetting our not so noble past, their party included, and feigning indignation. Like this never happened before. Give me a break!

Trump may of may not have received help. The Russians absolutely tried. Why don't we try to grow as a people and try to prevent this in the future instead of acting like this has never happened before. Hell, Hillary was working with the Ukranianians, she worked with the DNC to defeat Bernie and much more. Grow up people, get a life and work on prevention, not witch hunts.

Good post. I'm glad Hillary lost, and if others don't already know, I didn't vote for Trump. Can't wait for him to say something so outrageous that he has to bow out or they boot him out. While the dems and socialists do not give the office any respect just because Clinton lost to Trump, Trump as well does not give the office respect. He's his own worst enemy. I don't see anyway the parties are going to come together to get things constructively done as long as he's in office. This is as much his fault as anyone. While the dems and press are making his presidency a circus, Trump is the ringmaster.

[pinstripers]

I doubt if an American will ever believe anything they ever hear again on the national news. Might be the death of all of the political cable programs.

[Kung Wu]

Lets work on owning up to our past, Bill Clinton's help from the Chinese, Hillary's help from the Ukraine, Bush's aid, so on and so on.

Didn't the exemplary and honorable Al Gore(!) take a meeting with some Buddhist monks where he illegally raised money from a tax-exempt organization that included money from a couple cats he knew were foreigners?

[MoValley John]

Didn't the exemplary and honorable Al Gore(!) take a meeting with some Buddhist monks where he illegally raised money from a tax-exempt organization that included money from a couple cats he knew were foreigners?

Yes. But this stuff has been going on forever. We know that spies will be spies, that foreign governments will try to influence elections, and in a nutshell, stuff happens. That said, the handwringing, whining, kicking and screaming has reached epic proportions. What may have happened is par for the course, don't expect me to be surprised or demand hearings. How about each party just clean up their act, get our intelligence community to prevent this stuff in the future....... And move on.

And no, I didn't vote for Trump, not a Trump supporter or apologist, I'm just sick of the silliness. But I do like to watch videos of the Hillary supporters melting down on election night. They look like the bratty kids that demanded the newest, most expensive toy for Christmas, and instead, Santa delivered a lump of coal. Ala Veruca Salt.

[MoValley John]

I want my golden egg, NOW!!!

[Kung Wu]

Yes. But this stuff has been going on forever. We know that spies will be spies, that foreign governments will try to influence elections, and in a nutshell, stuff happens. That said, the handwringing, whining, kicking and screaming has reached epic proportions. What may have happened is par for the course, don't expect me to be surprised or demand hearings. How about each party just clean up their act, get our intelligence community to prevent this stuff in the future....... And move on.

And no, I didn't vote for Trump, not a Trump supporter or apologist, I'm just sick of the silliness. But I do like to watch videos of the Hillary supporters melting down on election night. They look like the bratty kids that demanded the newest, most expensive toy for Christmas, and instead, Santa delivered a lump of coal. Ala Veruca Salt.

Reagan used borrowed *ahem* debate notes of Carter's!

[ShockTalk]

Yes. But this stuff has been going on forever. We know that spies will be spies, that foreign governments will try to influence elections, and in a nutshell, stuff happens. That said, the handwringing, whining, kicking and screaming has reached epic proportions. What may have happened is par for the course, don't expect me to be surprised or demand hearings. How about each party just clean up their act, get our intelligence community to prevent this stuff in the future....... And move on.

And no, I didn't vote for Trump, not a Trump supporter or apologist, I'm just sick of the silliness. But I do like to watch videos of the Hillary supporters melting down on election night. They look like the bratty kids that demanded the newest, most expensive toy for Christmas, and instead, Santa delivered a lump of coal. Ala Veruca Salt.

[jdshock]

Let's assume Trump's behavior and Russia's actions are identical to every other president.

If the whole point of electing the guy who said offensive things, had no experience, and constantly flip flopped was to drain the swamp, shouldn't we still hold him accountable?