A Common Sense Approach to Middle East Refugees.

[Kung Wu]

Since you were equating illegal alien/refugee just above I figured Id ask.

No, I was just pointing out the two ways that terrorists can make it into the US, either as an illegal alien or as a refugee.

[shocka khan]

How do I sound like a liberal? I took no side, I just pointed it out that approximately 350 terrorists would probably include a couple of them infiltrating Wichita. Moreover, when you consider that it took less than 10 to **** up Paris, 350 would certainly be enough to include Paris. From that, I leave it up to you to decide.

And aren't terrorists people? The NRA believes That guns don't kill people, but people kill people. My opinion is that people, not guns, kill people.

OK, but ponder on this: The terrorists in Paris had automatic weapons. An automatic weapon is a tool, at crudest a labor saving device. It allowed them to kill a lot of people a lot faster. How many people do you think the 19 would have killed if they had been armed with pen knives or letter openers?

My point is that dangerous tools should not be allowed in the hands of fools and simpletons. A gun is a dangerous tool.

And if people only kill people, should I be allowed to own a couple of canisters of Sarin? I mean, the Sarin doesn't kill anyone UNLESS it's in the wrong hands. And I don't plan on killing anyone today, tomorrow or ever.

So who should decide what is a dangerous tool, and if it is determined to be a dangerous tool, do we allow fools and simpletons to collect them?

The NRA has made a faustian bargain and they don't know how to undo it. Me, I think people who are not fools and simpletons should be allowed to own guns, but if you are a fool or a simpleton, you don't need a labor-saving device used to kill people.

I consider terrorists to be fools and simpletons.

[shocka khan]

Since when is a refugee an illegal alien?

Exactly. We have a tradition of allowing refugees into our country. We have laws that prohibit illegal immigration. They are not enforced well, but we do have laws. I saw some other conflation going on with the post as well, primarily related to the logical fallacy of 'that which is true of the parts is not true of the whole'. Just because someone is a jihadi doesn't mean they are illegal, doesn't mean they are popping out kids (even poor people who are legal do that, it's probably a very inexpensive form of entertainment for grown-ups).

As I always like to say (and have been soundly criticized on SN for saying) that they are just data points. Connect them and add some insight and you have a profile which might fit a jihadi.

Jihadi John came from a middle-class family in England. He wasn't poor and he wasn't popping out kids.

The organizer of the Paris attacks had family that owned a clothing shop and maintained a relatively high standard of lifestyle based on the neighborhood in Brussels he came from.

Both had had interactions with law enforcement. We probably **should have** known their capacity for committing terrorist acts, but now we have the insight that these people went to Syria and became Jihadists. So what do we have? Young men, middle-class upbringing, parents giving their kids the best they have and they still went bad. Our insight that we now have is that they went to Syria.

That's how you take insight and add it to the facts that you know so that you can form a **reasoned** conclusion.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

No, I was just pointing out the two ways that terrorists can make it into the US, either as an illegal alien or as a refugee.

I didn't say anything about the number of illegal aliens sneaking in that I would find acceptable. Totally different issue.

My comments addressed refugees only. We are talking 100k, not 10 mil. We are also talking about people who have been screened, not those who have snuck in.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

So it's acceptable that about 43,000 Americans may be killed by terrorists on American soil to you?

Please elaborate. 43,000?

[Kung Wu]

I didn't say anything about the number of illegal aliens sneaking in that I would find acceptable.

Neither did I.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I see we are dancing around each other.

Simple question: If terrorists were 1-in-a-million of all Syrian refugees, would that be an acceptable risk, in your opinion, to accept in order to help 100k of them? 10% chance that 1 is a terrorist.

[JJClamdip]

And aren't terrorists people? The NRA believes That guns don't kill people, but people kill people. My opinion is that people, not guns, kill people.

But people holding guns kill people and guns being held by people kill people not guns.

[MoValley John]

You know it's amazing that you sound just like a frightened liberal when you talk like that.

The NRA would like for us to sell guns to any nut. No paperwork needed!

The result is that we have monthly mass shootings now.

And crazy people can still buy guns because the NRA wants them to.

What's the difference between the kid at Sandy Hook, who slaughtered 20 students and a little old lady Muslim with an explosive vest?

The NRA.

When the NRA starts telling us that Syrian refugees with green cards can't buy guns and nuts can't buy guns, perhaps I will be more than a little willing to accept the premise that if we let in one terrorist it will be "one too many".

Ummm, I don't sound like a liberal and I'm not a member of the NRA. I've said it probably more than 20 times on this board, I'm not a member of the NRA. For good measure, I'll make it at least 21 times, I'm not a member of the NRA.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Please elaborate. 43,000?

I re-read your post about 43,000. Assuming a kill rate per terrorist equal to that of the 9/11 hijackers is unrealistic. Like I already pointed out, guys like the Wichita man a couple years ago were terrorists, yet failed spectacularly. Many others have been arrested and their plans totally stopped. Many who do manage to carry out their plans take very few victims. 300 terrorists = 43,000 deaths? Possible, but only if those 300 are many times of magnitude more successful, on average, than what we've seen in the last 10-15 years.

I stand by my statement. Inclusive of all religions, races, etc., I'd be ecstatic if the true terrorist count out of our current 300 million was only 300. Unfortunately, I am convinced the number is higher than that.

[JJClamdip]

Ummm, I don't sound like a liberal and I'm not a member of the NRA. I've said it probably more than 20 times on this board, I'm not a member of the NRA. For good measure, I'll make it at least 21 times, I'm not a member of the NRA.

Some people may buy that but not me, I have pictures of the drunken night we spent in Council Bluffs at the midget wrestling where you jumped into the ring bare chested and challenged all of the little ****ers to knock the NRA tattoo off of your chest.

[MoValley John]

Some people may buy that but not me, I have pictures of the drunken night we spent in Council Bluffs at the midget wrestling where you jumped into the ring bare chested and challenged all of the little ****ers to knock the NRA tattoo off of your chest.

Crap, I forgot about that! Was that before or after RDR held up smoke shop demanding money, a carton of smokes and a box of rubbers?

[MoValley John]

Crap, I forgot about that! Was that before or after RDR held up smoke shop demanding money, a carton of smokes and a box of rubbers?

I should make note that RDR wasn't an indiscriminate thief, he demanded a carton of Winston's and a box of Trojan Magnums.

[Kung Wu]

Crap, I forgot about that! Was that before or after RDR held up smoke shop demanding money, a carton of smokes and a box of rubbers?

I hope those were for chicks this time?

[JJClamdip]

I should make note that RDR wasn't an indiscriminate thief, he demanded a carton of Winston's and a gross of Trojan Magnums.

Fixed