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Kansas budget means $3.3M less in state funding for Wichita State

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  • #76
    My daughter is joining the teaching ranks in science next year. I don't hold teachers's unions responsible. There are elected representatives that bargain with taxpayers money that should be held responsible. Many of those also get government pensions and wouldn't dream of taking away others pension plans because it would risk there own. Who wouldn't want a pension? Still many companies have gone away from the pension model to one that provides good programs for the workers to put money into for retirement. Many will provide some matching money. This seems much more sustainable than pension plans where the government agrees to contracts and then fails to adequately fund those contracts and then complains that teachers unions have too much power.

    It is not just teachers that I am talking about with respect to government pension plans. I know of one individual who is getting a pension payment from the state of Kansas while working for the state, a pension from working as a judge and a pension from a law school, plus social security. I know of another who will get a pension payment from working for the Sedgwick County sheriff department, one from the City of Wichita and is trying to get enough time as a US Deputy Marshall to get a third. Good for them but the money to pay all those pensions comes from taxpayers. The US Post Office is another example. They are struggling mightily with retirees pensions and health care. Not once I have seen anyone suggest that they need to scrap the retirement programs they have and go to sustainable retirement programs, especially from anyone within the Postal Service. While many blast the US Post Office it is still remarkable to me that I can send a Priority Mail package for around $5 that would cost me $30 through FedEX.

    Also I might add that I really appreciate the new income tax law. I will not have to pay state income taxes this year! Still I do not see the fairness of having certain people that do not recieve a "wage" not having to pay income taxes but those that do get a wage or salary having to pay income taxes. I also cannot fathom how the state can fund what needs to be funded without income tax revenues.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by engrshock View Post
      My daughter is joining the teaching ranks in science next year. I don't hold teachers's unions responsible. There are elected representatives that bargain with taxpayers money that should be held responsible. Many of those also get government pensions and wouldn't dream of taking away others pension plans because it would risk there own. Who wouldn't want a pension? Still many companies have gone away from the pension model to one that provides good programs for the workers to put money into for retirement. Many will provide some matching money. This seems much more sustainable than pension plans where the government agrees to contracts and then fails to adequately fund those contracts and then complains that teachers unions have too much power.

      It is not just teachers that I am talking about with respect to government pension plans. I know of one individual who is getting a pension payment from the state of Kansas while working for the state, a pension from working as a judge and a pension from a law school, plus social security. I know of another who will get a pension payment from working for the Sedgwick County sheriff department, one from the City of Wichita and is trying to get enough time as a US Deputy Marshall to get a third. Good for them but the money to pay all those pensions comes from taxpayers. The US Post Office is another example. They are struggling mightily with retirees pensions and health care. Not once I have seen anyone suggest that they need to scrap the retirement programs they have and go to sustainable retirement programs, especially from anyone within the Postal Service. While many blast the US Post Office it is still remarkable to me that I can send a Priority Mail package for around $5 that would cost me $30 through FedEX.

      Also I might add that I really appreciate the new income tax law. I will not have to pay state income taxes this year! Still I do not see the fairness of having certain people that do not recieve a "wage" not having to pay income taxes but those that do get a wage or salary having to pay income taxes. I also cannot fathom how the state can fund what needs to be funded without income tax revenues.
      Those are all good points.

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      • #78
        Double dipping may perhaps be unfair, but it is not wrecking the state budget. The state legislature has taken steps in the past 5-10 years to limit it and so it happens less often. The only times that I'm aware of it happening is at a cost to the double dipper (they have to pay the new KPERS payments instead of the hiring entity) and it is more likely to happen if the entity has a difficult time finding capable hires because of a shortage, therefore willing to take on more of the payments. Additionally, I'm aware of people who come from private corporations (energy companies, and aircraft companies) who retire in their mid 50's (either encouraged to retire by high pay offs or retirement benefits) who open up private businesses or go into education to teach math and science because there is a shortage of teachers. These workers are double dipping too. In short, it is difficult to totally do away with this practice but it does happen on a limited basis.

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        • #79
          It matters not how often it happens, it matters only if it's an unfunded mandate or an unsustainable expense. I'm sorry if someone was promised the moon at the expense of the taxpayer just because an elected official (or officials and I don't care from which side of the aisle they originated) wanted to buy some votes but that doesn't mean the taxpayer has to be on the hook forever. We have a problem, let's fix the problem.

          The big issue is that government has grown so large, there are so many people affected by things like this that no elected official will touch it with a 10 foot pole for fear of repercussions from the voters. It's sad really. But continuing down this path will ultimately bring financial ruin. It's only an amount of time.

          And I agree with @shox1989: in that the people have elected officials to set the rules for the workers. I DISAGREE that governmental workers should be unionized. They take tax payer money, turn it into influence and then turn it against the tax payer, often times without choice. You want to influence people, fine. Do it with your own money, NOT money that comes from me.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by WuDrWu View Post
            It matters not how often it happens, it matters only if it's an unfunded mandate or an unsustainable expense. I'm sorry if someone was promised the moon at the expense of the taxpayer just because an elected official (or officials and I don't care from which side of the aisle they originated) wanted to buy some votes but that doesn't mean the taxpayer has to be on the hook forever. We have a problem, let's fix the problem.

            The big issue is that government has grown so large, there are so many people affected by things like this that no elected official will touch it with a 10 foot pole for fear of repercussions from the voters. It's sad really. But continuing down this path will ultimately bring financial ruin. It's only an amount of time.

            And I agree with @shox1989: in that the people have elected officials to set the rules for the workers. I DISAGREE that governmental workers should be unionized. They take tax payer money, turn it into influence and then turn it against the tax payer, often times without choice. You want to influence people, fine. Do it with your own money, NOT money that comes from me.
            +1

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            • #81
              You can run down government workers all you wish. Remember that government workers are tax payers too. You shouldn't compare Kansas with California, Illinoi, New Jersey, etc. when it comes to government workers. Those states have given workers the moon. I won't speak for all government workers (judges, etc.), but I know that salaries, and retirement for police, fireman, and educators are perilously low and therefore cause shortages. If they have tickets to Shocker games, you won't find any of them sitting down in the seats where you sit. Given the amount they spend for their educations, and the time they have to spend to pay off their debts, they aren't getting anywhere close to rich. Again, they aren't sinking the state budget.

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              • #82
                The average salary for a public sector worker is higher than the average for private sector workers in Kansas. Public sector worker are likely to have better benefits too. Pensions don't exist much in the private sector, but they do for public sector.

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                • #83
                  .
                  Last edited by Guest; August 10, 2013, 11:00 AM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by GoShockers89 View Post
                    Actually, they get their student loans forgiven in record time with minimal principal repayment. Ten years is the typical time frame for low-mid salaried teachers and government employees. Comparable private sector employees with the same salary need 20 years to achieve the same result (and their loan forgiveness results in a megatax bomb in the ultimate year, unlike the government employee).

                    http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/edu...are-affordable
                    My understanding is that those new rules will only apply to the future (those getting loans in 2014 and beyond). Current public employees do not get their student loans forgiven early.

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                    • #85
                      .
                      Last edited by Guest; August 10, 2013, 10:59 AM.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by shockmonster View Post
                        I won't speak for all government workers (judges, etc.), but I know that salaries, and retirement for police, fireman, and educators are perilously low and therefore cause shortages.
                        What are you talking about? Policeman, firefighters, and public school teachers are all careers that start ~$40K and can top out over $100K+ with advancement and promotion, and have fantastic retirement benefits. I know 2 households where the man and wife are both public school teachers. In each scenario the husband is a low-end administrator (assistant principal), and the wife is simply a teacher. One of them lives in Terradyne, and the other Reflection Ridge. Both have household incomes approaching $150K annual, via public data info that is stupid easy to locate. That's almost 90th percentile.

                        I have basis by which to speak in this regard. My wife is a teacher, and I am self-employed in a very specialized field with boatloads of liability and long work weeks. There's not a day goes by that I don't think about what a plum gig my wife has with her 50 hour work weeks 9 months of the year, 3 months vacation in total, sweet healthcare package, KPERS, and literal guarantee she will always have that job barring some freakish circumstances. Sure she makes less than I do, but it's still a very livable wage, especially if it's combined with another person making roughly the same.

                        Goodness... people need perspective in this world. Sustained, long-term unemployment is at a rate we nor our country has ever seen. We have college grads working retail and service jobs, and perfectly well-rounded high-school grads trying to simply figure out how to stay in the apartment they moved into after their home was foreclosed upon. Yet there's still people out there thinking that a married couple just out of college making a combined $80K as public school teachers (~75th income percentile as household) have it rough.

                        Oh, and I can assure anyone wondering - my wife's student loan balance is alive and well, and will be for another notable chunk of our lives. It's balance goes down at the direct expense of our bank account, and will until it's paid off. No freebies on our end, unless they pop up out of nowhere in the future at some point.
                        Last edited by SHOCKvalue; June 24, 2013, 03:29 PM.

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                        • #87
                          Ricky, not all FF, police and EMS start at that. Many start under $30k per year.

                          I'm not saying this directed at anyone specific, but try doing those jobs for that type of wage. Most can't do them at all. They really aren't paid very well until they have been around for a long time and have been through promotions.

                          I always love when people complain that they are paid too much but damn sure expect them to be there when you need them.

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                          • #88
                            Can you actually reference me with a link of a police/fire or teacher position in the Wichita area that starts sub-$30K? Honestly, the only one of those that you might have a chance at finding at that level are PD in a few of the small bedroom communities. WPD and WFD are pushing $40K starting today, if they are not already over. USD 259 is not far under that figure.

                            Anyways, I don't think those in public safety careers are paid too much. I never said that, and I never would. My argument is they are paid a fair wage, and to portray it as if they live hand-to-mouth as some do is silly. I'd say the exact same thing about teachers.

                            There are people lined up around the block to get on any police or fire department of any size. The demand is high - really high - for those open spots. To have any chance at one you need to fit one of the following criteria: former military, close network connections, meet an affirmative action class, or be stupid overqualified for the actual position. And that's after passing all the written and physical testing, and taking an oral interview, just to get on their candidate list. Nevertheless, any city of any size has a substantial waiting list of already tested and interviewed candidates. Surely you probably know a police officer or firefighter in your extended social circle - just ask them about how hard is was to get on, and the competition for those jobs.

                            And there really is not a teacher shortage. Competition is high there as well for most openings. What there is, is a shortage of willing and qualified candidates interested in working in inner city schools - more so after NCLB legislation.
                            Last edited by SHOCKvalue; June 24, 2013, 07:24 PM.

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                            • #89
                              It does appear that the average starting salary in Wichita for a school teacher appears to be around $40,000 and ranges from $32,109 to $48,163 . But in nearby Wellington the average starting salary is $27,024 and the lowest starting salary listed is $21,619. I didn't spend too much time on this, but I am sure there are some areas of Kansas were teachers make more and some where they make less.

                              http://primaryschoolteachersalary.com/KS/Wellington/salary/School-Teacher-Salary


                              Wellington KS Yearly School Teacher Pay Statistics

                              Average Yearly School Teacher Salary $26,251 - $39,377
                              Starting Yearly School Teacher Salary $21,619 - $32,428
                              Top Yearly School Teacher Salary $30,884 - $46,326



                              Last edited by shox1989; June 24, 2013, 09:09 PM.

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                              • #90


                                This site lists the pay for Wichita police officers as follows:

                                Wichita KS Yearly Policeman Pay Statistics

                                Average Yearly Policeman Salary $38,989 - $58,484

                                Starting Yearly Policeman Salary $32,109 - $48,163


                                Top Yearly Policeman Salary $45,869 - $68,804



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