Another School Shooting

[SubGod22]

As they say, if you aren't on a government list of some kind, you're doing it wrong.

I get what some of you are saying, but I don't trust the government enough to think they wouldn't use certain powers to political means as opposed to simply safety means. Certain people should probably have more focus, but the FBI and others in the alphabet soup of DC have proven time and time again that they spend too much time following political foes, important and not, than actual threats or dangerous people.

If you could guarantee that they'd stick to the limited scope most would agree with, fine. But when has that ever happened? Hell, the PATRIOT ACT was supposed to be used to stop foreign foes plotting against us and our government uses it more against average everyday American citizens that it was never supposed to be intended for.

[ShockerPrez]

If you agree with red flag laws, just know that 'red flags' will be continually lowered in order to get who they want and make it impossible to buy guns. Just as limiting magazine capacity is a backdoor gun ban as many guns dom't receive lower magazines. Buying beer on Sunday would be a red flag, eg. As Sub said, if you could trust that the agencies administering them could be trusted, it would make sense, but you can't take that chance, unfortunately. Their goal is zero guns in the hands of their political opponents. They will use every infringement to that end. Every one.

[1972Shocker]

A mother of a shooting victim expresses her thoughts in front of Congress:

[ShockerDropOut]

As they say, if you aren't on a government list of some kind, you're doing it wrong.

I get what some of you are saying, but I don't trust the government enough to think they wouldn't use certain powers to political means as opposed to simply safety means. Certain people should probably have more focus, but the FBI and others in the alphabet soup of DC have proven time and time again that they spend too much time following political foes, important and not, than actual threats or dangerous people.

If you could guarantee that they'd stick to the limited scope most would agree with, fine. But when has that ever happened? Hell, the PATRIOT ACT was supposed to be used to stop foreign foes plotting against us and our government uses it more against average everyday American citizens that it was never supposed to be intended for.

It wont let me like this 100x or i would!

[SubGod22]

Eagle - Report: Police in Uvalde had rifles earlier than known

Multiple police officers armed with rifles and at least one ballistic shield stood and waited in a school hallway for nearly an hour while a gunman carried out a massacre of 19 elementary students and two teachers, according to a Monday news report that marks the latest embarrassing revelation about the failure of law enforcement to thwart the attack.

The officers with heavier firepower and tactical equipment were there within 19 minutes of the gunman arriving on campus — earlier than previously known, according to documents reviewed by the Austin American-Statesman and KVUE-TV.

The outlets’ report, which did not indicate the source of the documents, nevertheless intensifies the anguish and questions over why police didn’t act sooner to stop the May 24 slaughter in the Robb Elementary School classroom.

The information is to be presented to a public Texas Senate hearing in Austin on Tuesday. Investigators say the latest information indicates officers had more than enough firepower and protection to take down the gunman long before they finally did, the outlets reported.

The timeline the American-Statesman and KVUE reported from the documents included footage from inside the school that showed the 18-year-old gunman casually entering a rear door at 11:33 a.m., walking to a classroom and immediately spraying gunfire before barricading himself. Video showed 11 officers entering the school three minutes later, the outlets reported.

The more we learn about the response, the more we learn about the complete and utter failure of the police in Uvalde and you can't help but wonder how many of those that died may have survived had the police acted like they should have, and we're constantly told they do/will.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

Eagle - Report: Police in Uvalde had rifles earlier than known



The more we learn about the response, the more we learn about the complete and utter failure of the police in Uvalde and you can't help but wonder how many of those that died may have survived had the police acted like they should have, and we're constantly told they do/will.

I will disagree on the "Should have" and "Told they will". You yourself are very critical about police action. Lawsuits and terminations await those who try to do what needs to be done without direct orders and all the information gathered and carefully analyzed. The level of scrutiny that would have happened had one kid been struck and killed by a bullet from an officer would have been 10 fold the scrutiny of doing nothing. They didn't create this, the media and "torch and pitchfork" crowd did.

[SHOCKvalue]

They didn't create this, the media and "torch and pitchfork" crowd did.

What? I mean what in the effing what?

Law enforcement - folks earning a salary to "serve and protect" - sat around with their thumb up their a** while children were literally being murdered. Do you know a different story line than the rest of us? And we're not talking about a few minutes to figure out an approach to a massive emergency, we're talking about figuratively letting the building burn down before dragging out the fire hose level of clusterf*ck. And it was only ended because one of the LEOs present that day said "screw it" to the chain of command and went in and got sh*t done.

I hate on the MSM as much as the next right- or libertarian-minded person, but in this particular case I'm thrilled to sit back, watch them eat and do their thing.

[Maizerunner08]

What? I mean what in the effing what?

Law enforcement - folks earning a salary to "serve and protect" - sat around with their thumb up their a** while children were literally being murdered. Do you know a different story line than the rest of us? And we're not talking about a few minutes to figure out an approach to a massive emergency, we're talking about figuratively letting the building burn down before dragging out the fire hose level of clusterf*ck. And it was only ended because one of the LEOs present that day said "screw it" to the chain of command and went in and got sh*t done.

I hate on the MSM as much as the next right- or libertarian-minded person, but in this particular case I'm thrilled to sit back, watch them eat and do their thing.

This is where I'm at. Being in law enforcement is a damn hard job. I won't argue that one bit. But imagine telling a parent of a dead child that their child died because of police cowardice or police bureaucracy.

[SubGod22]

I will disagree on the "Should have" and "Told they will". You yourself are very critical about police action. Lawsuits and terminations await those who try to do what needs to be done without direct orders and all the information gathered and carefully analyzed. The level of scrutiny that would have happened had one kid been struck and killed by a bullet from an officer would have been 10 fold the scrutiny of doing nothing. They didn't create this, the media and "torch and pitchfork" crowd did.

I keep an open mindset when it comes to police. I don't give them a free pass for everything like some do, and sure as hell don't try and string them up for everything like others do. I do think they should be held accountable for their actions, or lack there of in this case.

The facts as gathered have shown that they had enough firepower AND protection to go in and take the shooter out within 20 minutes of this all beginning. They waited. And waited. And waited. Nobody wanted to do anything. Except for the parents outside who were being held back and handcuffed. It wasn't until an off duty ICE agent I believe heard about what was going on and borrowed his barbers gun went in and finished things.

I get those there wanting to follow orders and not act until told. I don't completely agree with it, especially after they had more than enough personnel, weapons and defensive armament to take care of business. Those in "leadership" positions who failed to lead should be held accountable for sure.

And we've seen instances where police have been too cavalier and killed innocent kids while being reckless and not be held accountable either. So I'm not sure if that was a great fear. And in the one instance I'm thinking of, I believe the person they were firing at wasn't a threat but was running away through a mall or department store where they killed a girl who was in a changing room. So even had they hit a child while taking down an active shooter, I don't think things would be near as bad as you think for them. Instead, they chose to stand around doing nothing and letting who knows how many bleed out and die while they had more than enough on site to take care of business.

We've also seen cops shoot at family pets and hit children and there's no legal actions or major issues for them. Heaven forbid a french bulldog barks at a cop and scares him to the point he fears for his life and has to shoot. But have a gunman shooting up a classroom full of kids and they have plenty of time to stand around and wait for a better situation...

Sometimes LEOs are worth defending. The entire force of Uvalde failed their community and those kids and they shouldn't be given a pass simply because they wear a badge. Hell, their FB page previously bragged about their well trained SWAT unit that was there to protect the community. They did jack **** that day. If you want to give cops a free pass for everything, that's on you my friend. I've talked to my LEO friends who are absolutely ashamed of how the Uvalde PD handled things. But I guess since they're critical of bad cops they too must be very critical about police action. The thing is, should police be scrutinized when they either abuse their position or fail to do their jobs? I know they're under absolutely zero legal obligation to protect, but that's what they always claim to do and why they feel they deserve respect no matter what. Respect is earned and the entire department failed to earn it.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

I keep an open mindset when it comes to police. I don't give them a free pass for everything like some do, and sure as hell don't try and string them up for everything like others do. I do think they should be held accountable for their actions, or lack there of in this case.

The facts as gathered have shown that they had enough firepower AND protection to go in and take the shooter out within 20 minutes of this all beginning. They waited. And waited. And waited. Nobody wanted to do anything. Except for the parents outside who were being held back and handcuffed. It wasn't until an off duty ICE agent I believe heard about what was going on and borrowed his barbers gun went in and finished things.

I get those there wanting to follow orders and not act until told. I don't completely agree with it, especially after they had more than enough personnel, weapons and defensive armament to take care of business. Those in "leadership" positions who failed to lead should be held accountable for sure.

And we've seen instances where police have been too cavalier and killed innocent kids while being reckless and not be held accountable either. So I'm not sure if that was a great fear. And in the one instance I'm thinking of, I believe the person they were firing at wasn't a threat but was running away through a mall or department store where they killed a girl who was in a changing room. So even had they hit a child while taking down an active shooter, I don't think things would be near as bad as you think for them. Instead, they chose to stand around doing nothing and letting who knows how many bleed out and die while they had more than enough on site to take care of business.

We've also seen cops shoot at family pets and hit children and there's no legal actions or major issues for them. Heaven forbid a french bulldog barks at a cop and scares him to the point he fears for his life and has to shoot. But have a gunman shooting up a classroom full of kids and they have plenty of time to stand around and wait for a better situation...

Sometimes LEOs are worth defending. The entire force of Uvalde failed their community and those kids and they shouldn't be given a pass simply because they wear a badge. Hell, their FB page previously bragged about their well trained SWAT unit that was there to protect the community. They did jack **** that day. If you want to give cops a free pass for everything, that's on you my friend. I've talked to my LEO friends who are absolutely ashamed of how the Uvalde PD handled things. But I guess since they're critical of bad cops they too must be very critical about police action. The thing is, should police be scrutinized when they either abuse their position or fail to do their jobs? I know they're under absolutely zero legal obligation to protect, but that's what they always claim to do and why they feel they deserve respect no matter what. Respect is earned and the entire department failed to earn it.

Lots of generalization there, and my point wasn't to defend the Uvalde Police Department. It was, as you point out, to call out the leadership that has failed them. The communities that don't support them. And the no-win situation many are put into.

I also know a lot of police officers. One was fired because he removed a young girl from a house during a domestic dispute, took her back to the precinct. From the time he left the house untii the mom showed back up the young girl was with himself and a female officer. They sat in an office and gave her food, something to drink, and played a game of the daughters choice. They were both fired for doing the right thing and removing the youngster (the father went to jail for hitting her and her mom) without permission. He now has to explain this on every job application he puts in.

For every bad thing a cop has done that gets publicized, there are MILLIONS of positive ones and very few get publicized. Get rid of the bad ones, celebrate the good ones, and find ways to properly support them.

[SHOCKvalue]

Get rid of the bad ones, celebrate the good ones, and find ways to properly support them.

^That's the problem. They don't get rid of the bad ones. When a bad one is identified the wagons are circled, the unions goons are activated, and the us vs them nonsense starts. A massive problem for the US law enforcement community is the PR nightmare and tone-deafness of defending the bad seeds until the nth degree.

[SubGod22]

^That's the problem. They don't get rid of the bad ones. When a bad one is identified the wagons are circled, the unions goons are activated, and the us vs them nonsense starts. A massive problem for the US law enforcement community is the PR nightmare and tone-deafness of defending the bad seeds until the nth degree.

^^^^^^^^^^^SO MUCH THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

^That's the problem. They don't get rid of the bad ones. When a bad one is identified the wagons are circled, the unions goons are activated, and the us vs them nonsense starts. A massive problem for the US law enforcement community is the PR nightmare and tone-deafness of defending the bad seeds until the nth degree.

A) you act like this is the only place Unions do that.
B) most of the "circle the wagons" you reference are to allow due process, and not have a knee jerk reaction.
C) we seem to defend all the bad seeds, regardless of who they are, to the nth degree.

Consider this scenario:

Customer goes into the bank and withdraws $5,000. When the customer gets to the car dealership to put the money down on a car there is only $4,800 in the envelope. The customer immediately goes back to the bank and throws a huge tantrum on how they were screwed, and that the bank was ripping them off, shows the envelope to the manager and it has only $4,800 in it. They verify the teller and they expect the teller to be fired immediately.

Would this the right thing?

Of course not. There are several steps to be taken to investigate. The teller drawer counted down right. They review the video of the teller counting out the money. Can see the 50 $100 bills. They are all put into the envelope. The envelope is clearly presented to the customer with all $5,000 in it.

When presented with this evidence, and more questions answered, it is uncovered that they customer stopped to get something from the store and left envelope in the car with their S/O. The S/O can be seen on video taking $200 out of the envelope on security camera.

In this case, the teller should not be fired. If the teller's drawer was $200 over, should the teller then be fired? What if the teller had been found with $200 in their pocket unaccounted for, should they have been fired then?

Due process is owed to every citizen of the United States. Regardless of Public Relations, outcry from any demographic, and regardless of the job they have.

[SHOCKvalue]

A) you act like this is the only place Unions do that.
B) most of the "circle the wagons" you reference are to allow due process, and not have a knee jerk reaction.
C) we seem to defend all the bad seeds, regardless of who they are, to the nth degree.

Consider this scenario:

Customer goes into the bank and withdraws $5,000. When the customer gets to the car dealership to put the money down on a car there is only $4,800 in the envelope. The customer immediately goes back to the bank and throws a huge tantrum on how they were screwed, and that the bank was ripping them off, shows the envelope to the manager and it has only $4,800 in it. They verify the teller and they expect the teller to be fired immediately.

Would this the right thing?

Of course not. There are several steps to be taken to investigate. The teller drawer counted down right. They review the video of the teller counting out the money. Can see the 50 $100 bills. They are all put into the envelope. The envelope is clearly presented to the customer with all $5,000 in it.

When presented with this evidence, and more questions answered, it is uncovered that they customer stopped to get something from the store and left envelope in the car with their S/O. The S/O can be seen on video taking $200 out of the envelope on security camera.

In this case, the teller should not be fired. If the teller's drawer was $200 over, should the teller then be fired? What if the teller had been found with $200 in their pocket unaccounted for, should they have been fired then?

Due process is owed to every citizen of the United States. Regardless of Public Relations, outcry from any demographic, and regardless of the job they have.

Plenty of people are fired for high-profile stuff long before a guilty verdict is read. How many teachers accused of sex crimes maintained their job until the day after the guilty verdict? I don't know the numbers exactly (as no one would), but most often when such a story pops up the teacher is fired shortly after accusation. There are other examples. Not saying it is good or bad, but it definitely happens.

[SubGod22]

Eagle - Top Texas cop: Uvalde police response was 'abject failure'

The head of the Texas state police pronounced the law enforcement response to the Uvalde school shooting an “abject failure," telling lawmakers that there were enough officers and firepower on the scene to have stopped the gunman three minutes after he entered the building.

Col. Steve McCraw also said officers would have found the door to the classroom where the assailant was holed up unlocked if they had bothered to check it.
.....
“I don’t care if you have on flip-flops and Bermuda shorts, you go in,” McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, said Tuesday in blistering testimony at a state Senate hearing.

The classroom door, it turned out, could not be locked from the inside by design, according to McCraw, who also said a teacher reported before the shooting that the lock was broken. Yet there is no indication officers tried to open it during the standoff, McCraw said. He said police instead waited for keys.
.....
McCraw lit into Pete Arredondo, the Uvalde school district police chief who McCraw said was in charge, saying: “The only thing stopping a hallway of dedicated officers from entering Room 111 and 112 was the on-scene commander who decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children.”

Arredondo made “terrible decisions,” said McCraw, who lamented that the police response "set our profession back a decade.”
.....
“You don’t wait for a SWAT team. You have one officer, that’s enough,” he said. He also said officers did not need to wait for shields to enter the classroom. The first shield arrived less than 20 minutes after the shooter entered, according to McCraw.

Eight minutes after the shooter entered, an officer reported that police had a heavy-duty crowbar that they could use to break down the classroom door, McCraw said.
.....
Bettencourt challenged Arredondo to testify in public and said he should have removed himself from the job immediately. He angrily pointed out that shots were heard while police waited.

“There are at least six shots fired during this time," he said. “Why is this person shooting? He’s killing somebody. Yet this incident commander finds every reason to do nothing.”

Yup, it's just crazy lefties and the libertarian types that "hate" cops that see the Uvalde PD as a complete cluster****. Certainly other LEO's can justify the complete ineptitude that was on display...