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New Downtown Baseball Stadium, AAA Club, and Associated RE Development

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  • Originally posted by Scott View Post

    Like the restaurants, shops and other secondary developments that are already proposed. Give local developers free land and $80 million and let them go crazy. We don't need to pay a bribe to a baseball team owner that has proven he will leave town as soon as the next sucker dangles a new stadium in front of him. Wichita is getting ready to give the Baby Cakes owner an $80 million dollar stadium and he is not putting up a single penny toward the construction costs. New Orleans built them a $21 million stadium and the Baby Cakes paid $5 million of that cost. Wichita is getting a much worse deal.

    How about a different sport? Why does it have to be baseball just because that is what Longwell has a fetish for? Did the city even reach out to other alternatives? An $80 million public investment and acres of free land would appeal to a lot more than just one AAA team.
    Are you trying to be intentionally misleading?

    Just looked up Baby Cakes ownership and stadium stuff. That stadium was built in 1997, and then repaired with the $21M you mentioned in 2006 after Katrina. Lou Sch-whateverhisnameis didn’t have anything to do with the club until he bought in in 11/2015. That dog don’t hunt. Besides, you’re talking a minor league team in a city with pro clubs. Not a good combo, like ever.

    What other sport?

    Soccer? Puhleeze! Yeah, Wichita soccer watching enthusiasts sure are asking for a downtown soccer stadium. All twelve of them.

    Imaginary minor league football? Perhaps.

    Imaginary outdoor minor league basketball? Could be?

    Move the Thunder outside and play during the summer? Sure!

    What else should they do with the 4 acres? So far in the modern history of Wichita 2/3rds of it has been unmaintained asphalt, the other 1/3rd the ugliest stretch of Ark River waterfront in all of Wichita north of Kellogg. Exactly no one was lining up with development ideas, prior.
    There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
    - Ernest Hemingway

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ShockerFever View Post
      Now that I'm thinking about it, Scott appears to be making this a soccer vs baseball thing. Wow. Embarrassing if true.
      And you would be wrong. I don't think that it makes sense to pay any sport that is likely to move to Wichita because they are not at a high enough level to make a significant difference for the area. Making an investment in the NBA would make sense, but it is never going to happen. Lower tier sports like soccer and minor league baseball are not going to bring tourists or jobs to Wichita. I guess we will see who is correct in a few years, the stadium is going to be built regardless. I predict a massive failure, after a honeymoon period the team will complain about low attendance, the new tax revenue will not cover the debt service and taxpayers will be stuck paying for an expensive stadium used by another independent team like the Wingnuts. If you think that the Baby Cakes are in this for the long term, you are delusional.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Scott View Post

        And you would be wrong. I don't think that it makes sense to pay any sport that is likely to move to Wichita because they are not at a high enough level to make a significant difference for the area. Making an investment in the NBA would make sense, but it is never going to happen. Lower tier sports like soccer and minor league baseball are not going to bring tourists or jobs to Wichita. I guess we will see who is correct in a few years, the stadium is going to be built regardless. I predict a massive failure, after a honeymoon period the team will complain about low attendance, the new tax revenue will not cover the debt service and taxpayers will be stuck paying for an expensive stadium used by another independent team like the Wingnuts. If you think that the Baby Cakes are in this for the long term, you are delusional.
        We are going to be one of the smallest metros to have an AAA club. It’s a big accomplishment to land that.

        NBA? Are you trolling? I think OKC is the smallest NBA town, and it’s over twice the size of Wichita. It’s stupid even saying Wichita and NBA in the same sentence.
        There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
        - Ernest Hemingway

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Scott View Post

          And you would be wrong. I don't think that it makes sense to pay any sport that is likely to move to Wichita because they are not at a high enough level to make a significant difference for the area. Making an investment in the NBA would make sense, but it is never going to happen. Lower tier sports like soccer and minor league baseball are not going to bring tourists or jobs to Wichita. I guess we will see who is correct in a few years, the stadium is going to be built regardless. I predict a massive failure, after a honeymoon period the team will complain about low attendance, the new tax revenue will not cover the debt service and taxpayers will be stuck paying for an expensive stadium used by another independent team like the Wingnuts. If you think that the Baby Cakes are in this for the long term, you are delusional.
          So your brilliant suggestion at the end of your last post saying we should look into other sports was.... an NBA team?

          Hold on one second.


          ......






          LMFAOOOOOOOOO






          .....


          Ok, I'm back.
          I'm not sure you're quite on this planet when fighting this fight. Not a whole lot of logic when making your case here.

          Just curious. When you voted NO on the arena vote in 2003 (assuming you were old enough), did you think it was gonna be massive failure too? How well has that worked out for ya?

          Deuces Valley.
          ... No really, deuces.
          ________________
          "Enjoy the ride."

          - a smart man

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ShockerFever View Post

            So your brilliant suggestion at the end of your last post saying we should look into other sports was.... an NBA team?

            Hold on one second.


            ......






            LMFAOOOOOOOOO






            .....


            Ok, I'm back.
            I'm not sure you're quite on this planet when fighting this fight. Not a whole lot of logic when making your case here.

            Just curious. When you voted NO on the arena vote in 2003 (assuming you were old enough), did you think it was gonna be massive failure too? How well has that worked out for ya?
            I guess reading comprehension is not your thing. I said that the NBA is never going to happen in Wichita. NO SPORT WILLING TO MOVE TO WICHITA IS WORTH PAYING TO MOVE HERE!!!!!

            However, the city didn't even consider other options. They were dead set on minor league baseball and that is why they are getting bent over and raw dogged by the team owner. Spending $80 million for minor league baseball is a sick joke. Woohoo, Wichita will have another lame entertainment option for the tiny number of people that care about minor league baseball. AAA baseball is simply not a big enough draw to produce all of the magical impacts that boosters claim it will. AAA baseball is not even on the radar for most of the people that live in the area. It may be a big deal to middle aged guys like Longwell, but nobody else gives a chit.

            Wichita should have thought bigger and done something much more interesting than just another D-list sports team. I can tell that sports fans will never get it. Minor league baseball is not a big deal and certainly not some major accomplishment for the city. It is like spending $80 million + for a Kohl's store, that is the level of economic impact it will actually produce.

            Is that easy enough to understand?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Scott View Post

              I guess reading comprehension is not your thing. I said that the NBA is never going to happen in Wichita. NO SPORT WILLING TO MOVE TO WICHITA IS WORTH PAYING TO MOVE HERE!!!!!

              However, the city didn't even consider other options. They were dead set on minor league baseball and that is why they are getting bent over and raw dogged by the team owner. Spending $80 million for minor league baseball is a sick joke. Woohoo, Wichita will have another lame entertainment option for the tiny number of people that care about minor league baseball. AAA baseball is simply not a big enough draw to produce all of the magical impacts that boosters claim it will. AAA baseball is not even on the radar for most of the people that live in the area. It may be a big deal to middle aged guys like Longwell, but nobody else gives a chit.

              Wichita should have thought bigger and done something much more interesting than just another D-list sports team. I can tell that sports fans will never get it. Minor league baseball is not a big deal and certainly not some major accomplishment for the city. It is like spending $80 million + for a Kohl's store, that is the level of economic impact it will actually produce.

              Is that easy enough to understand?
              Mods can we merge this with the Humor thread?

              Comment


              • Has Scott actually offered any actual ideas or possibilities or does he just keep repeating himself and saying nothing other than baseball bad? He seems to think all of this vacant land would have magically drawn interest and developments without the new stadium and a AAA affiliate. Or he thinks building a Kohls would generate interest and spur growth and development in that area.
                The boundaries which divide Life from Death are at best shadowy and vague. Who shall say where the one ends, and where the other begins?

                Comment


                • I think Scott said he was a “Millennial” didn’t he? If so, maybe a skateboard park or video-gaming complex are more in line with his thinking.

                  Comment


                  • shocker_torero
                    shocker_torero commented
                    Editing a comment
                    He said he was Gen X. Don't drag Millennials through the mud just because you aren't one.

                • Let me run your argument into the ground piece by piece. You will not win. You are wrong.

                  1. "the city didn't even consider other options" - You have no evidence the city didn't explore other options, therefore you can not say the city didn't consider other options.

                  2. "they are getting bent over and raw dogged by the team owner" - Your vulgarity aside, this statement is likely the dumbest one you've typed yet. Provide evidence that a AAA team moving to Wichita, a new multi-use stadium, the owners spending upwards of 7 mil on fixtures for the stadium, the owners committed to building new commercial space along the river, and new and much needed infrastructure improvements for that blighted section of the city is akin to the city getting raped by unscrupulous businessmen.

                  3. "Woohoo, Wichita will have another lame entertainment option for the tiny number of people that care about minor league baseball" - Sorry, this might be difficult for you to understand, but, just because you're not interested in something doesn't mean that's true of everyone else. Let alone, this isn't only about "the tiny number of people" who care about the MILB, but about creating a civic center on the river that will be used by EVERYONE.

                  4. "AAA baseball is simply not a big enough draw to produce all of the magical impacts that boosters claim it will" - You keep implying that the outcomes (you say impacts) the "boosters" are seeking are only paid baseball attendees. This is an over simplification and simply untrue. The direct outcomes (impacts) this project is seeking is the creation of a valuable civic center filled with shops, dining, and public space along the river all tied together by a AAA baseball team and stadium. The indirect outcomes (impacts) and arguably the most important, is that this civic center will be a tool in the tool belt of the city to lure people to, and keep highly educated (that runs from people gaining training at WSU Tech to people getting a PhD. in psychology from WSU) people from leaving Wichita. Businesses need an educated and available workforce to grow and expand locally.

                  5. "It may be a big deal to middle aged guys like Longwell, but nobody else gives a chit" - Another untruth. You like using anecdotes, so I'll use one too. I'm 30, my wife 29. Millennials. We both give a "chit" and so do many of my contemporaries.

                  6. "Wichita should have thought bigger and done something much more interesting than just another D-list sports team" - Please, tell us all, what are your suggestions? The city and like minded people are working hard to think and do big things. You, obviously, are not.

                  7. "Minor league baseball is not a big deal" - I'll just list some of the other cities that have AAA baseball which will be Wichita's contemporaries. Then tell me, being in this company isn't a big deal... Las Vegas, El Paso, Charlotte, Syracuse, Columbus, Louisville, Indianapolis, Oklahoma City, Sacramento, Albuquerque, Nashville, Omaha.... Should I go on?

                  8. "it is like spending $80 million + for a Kohl's store, that is the level of economic impact it will actually produce" - See my answer to number 4. Unless you're too dimwitted to understand indirect effects.

                  Comment


                  • Scott, Cato seemed to have an issue with the DC stadium and mined a lot of data to support their beliefs. I do think it is funny how cities compete for MLB or NFL by throwing in massive stadium incentives to get a team to move.

                    However to your point, LD stadium ( a socialist WPA project by the way built in the depression 30s) needed to go. No developers have stepped up in the past to develop that land. A CID tax will assist in paying for the stadium. A stadium used for many other events besides AAA baseball.

                    You sound like a libertarian which I respect, but I just don’t see the negatives with this project or selling 4 acres for $1 per in order to transition that entire development for the good of the entire city. Paid for by only those that entertain in that specific area.

                    The risk is to build an unattractive bland development. It’s not so much “if you build it they will come,” but rather “if you build it bland and boring, they won’t come.”

                    Comment


                    • I will give an economic impact for just my business.

                      70 home games per year
                      = approx 70 hotel nights from visiting teams
                      × 20 rooms per team
                      x $100 per night
                      = $140,000 in hotel rooms only from visiting teams.

                      Most if not all players on OUR team would need an extended stay hotel or apartment for 6 months.

                      That doesn't inlcude all their food, etc.

                      Nor does it include at least a week of NBC World Series lodging.

                      Nor does it include any other events that would bring in outside dollars.

                      Show me a Kohl's that would do that.

                      Comment


                      • Not to pile on, but I think it is incredibly short-sighted of people to attack this project based on a measly 4-acre deal sweetener and the likelihood that somebody will make a buck.

                        Triple-A club or not, having a modern baseball stadium is a must for a city of our size and aspirations. Having a Triple-A club only boosts the value of that stadium. In the same way that WSU's national brand is enhanced by association with schools and cities in the AAC, the city will benefit by a prominent association with OKC, Omaha, Memphis, Nashville, Colorado Springs, Salt Lake City and Las Vegas. It speaks to the status and quality of the city to those who do things like select regional office locations, relocate business headquarters or select convention sites. It says similar things to those who know nothing of Wichita as they consider relocating for a job, whether they're baseball fans or not.

                        The Eagle has certainly done everything possible to cast this project in a bad light. Most recently, Carrie Rengers' piece listing failed ballpark projects (and finding grounds to dismiss the successful ones) was nothing more than a hit job. Rengers cited as examples of failed projects only those that sought to use a new ballpark as an anchor for development where no development existed before (and in some cases no ballpark existed before). I will stipulate to the assertion that building a ballpark at 37th North and Broadway and hoping it would turn into retail wonderland would be completely irresponsible. Similarly I don't believe that building a ballpark to revive a dead and decaying downtown would work.

                        But that is simply not the case here. The site has had a ballpark for damn near a century. It is already surrounded by a thriving Delano district plus ongoing momentum in downtown and on the west bank. The commercial development surrounding the ballpark is not, therefore, intended as a transformative project. It is purely an amplifier of the energy and inertia that is already present. I believe it can be a significant one.
                        “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
                        Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                      • Well put, Wuzee. I do get the sentiment that the sh*tshow way the Waterwalk development progressed makes people reluctant, but good grief we can't let that get in the way of something that offers to be a great plus to the Delano neighborhood. If they do this right, the development on the west side of the river might become more like what Waterwalk was intended to be. And then maybe something will get moving with the still available space in the Waterwalk area. I've thought a restaurant/bar or two that had outdoor patios that faced those fountains could be a nice add. Or turn that open space into a more legit and permananet outdoor performance space, as we Wichitans seem to like our spring and summer outdoor concerts (with food trucks and beer garden of course).

                        As for the Gander Mtn building, if they can't find a viable commercial buyer to keep it on the tax rolls, I wonder if the footprint is big enough for a new performing arts center, if that is the road we as a city choose to take. It would have a lot of positives, easy access off of Kellogg, already has a parking structure, great potential for using the river view if desired.
                        Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss

                        Comment


                        • I’d bet a tidy sum (like a free lunch) that the “700 jobs” was in reference to the truck shipping brokerage firm (forget the name) that’s already downtown, but growing rapidly. Gander would make a perfect massive cubicle farm facility, which is what an employer like that would look for.

                          And it is funny how hard the Eagle is doubling down on every single quote, statement, or hair of data they can use to spin up a negative news story on Longwell and/or the stadium/development/team. Sorry to introduce a political analogy, but it seems like the Eagle has developed their own “Longwell Derangement Syndrome” in this whole deal. They are looking petty and ridiculous trying to “fact” every out of place freckle they can possibly find. Asinine! Like the National Enquirer had a hostile takeover of the Eagle or something.
                          There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
                          - Ernest Hemingway

                          Comment


                          • WstateU
                            WstateU commented
                            Editing a comment
                            It's the KC influence; when it comes down to it, they don't give a rats a$$ about Wichita.

                          • Veritas
                            Veritas commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Re WstateU. I think the KS side of KC metro does indeed give a rats ass about Wichita. Gives a rats ass in publishing every negative spin they can about Wichita in order to focus growth in the JoCo area. Can Wichita become part of Oklahoma and give Topeka and Joco the middle finger.
                            That is why Bardo was so refreshing. He fought for Wichita and WSU.

                        • The only thing I somewhat get hesitant about is half-assing ****. When they commit to these projects, they need to follow all the way through. The arena from a design standpoint was a disaster, especially considering the amount paid for it. Waterwalk was half-assed. The stadium and development around it needs to be done RIGHT. And it all needs to be put together as close on the timeline as possible. It would be dumb to build a new stadium and not have any kind of development surrounding it when it first opens. That is the time to get people snagged in.

                          This is where I'm apprehensive about. That the project is so rushed that they cut corners just to get something opened in 12 months. Have we actually seen a final rendering yet or do we just have speculative stuff? All of this stuff should have been done a year ago.

                          I'm all for the development and project IF it is done right. And unfortunately, the city has had a decent history with ****ing projects up.

                          My only concern.
                          Deuces Valley.
                          ... No really, deuces.
                          ________________
                          "Enjoy the ride."

                          - a smart man

                          Comment


                          • WstateU
                            WstateU commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Good points; I'm confident some lessons have been learned with IBA and Waterwalk… if not, we have little hope.

                          • SHOCKvalue
                            SHOCKvalue commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Absolutely. I think most everyone shares those fears. The initial renderings weren’t exactly impressive from a scale or design perspective either.

                            But none of that means we should throw up our hands and say eff it, as you basically already said.
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