New Downtown Baseball Stadium, AAA Club, and Associated RE Development

[ShockerFever]

No, LDS needed to go. I just think building the same thing in the same spot to lure a minor league baseball team to town at a cost of $80 million + is a boondoggle of epic proportions. That is a prime spot with riverfront access and views and we are wasting it on a minor league baseball stadium. The extreme hyperbole of the baseball fans and the "build it and they will come" crowd is pure fantasy. Baseball is a sport in decline with shrinking attendance, an aging fanbase and has shown no ability to connect with younger fans. Wichita cannot move forward by trying the same old same old failed ideas. Here are some reality based views of the value of taxpayer funded minor league baseball.

https://www.cato.org/blog/stadium-bo...-minor-leagues
https://journalistsresource.org/stud...ague-baseball/
https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/...winners-cities
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/s...orth-the-cost/
https://columbiametro.com/article/pe...-or-foul-ball/
https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publi...y-loss-leaders
https://business.tcnj.edu/wp-content...vised-2015.pdf


"Victor Matheson, a sports economist at College of the Holy Cross, says, “A good rule of thumb that economists use is to take what stadium boosters are telling you and move that one decimal place to the left, and that’s usually a good estimate of what you’re going to get.”

Michael, who has studied Chicago’s five major league pro franchises, says if every sports team in Chicago were to suddenly disappear, the impact on the Chicago economy would be a fraction of one percent. “A baseball team has about the same impact on a community as a midsize department store.”

Economists say the biggest reason sports teams don’t have much impact is that they don’t tend to spur new spending. Brad Humphreys, a professor of sports and entertainment at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, and Dennis Coates, an associate economics professor at the University of Maryland, completed a 30-year study of 37 pro sports franchises. Their report indicates they found: “no single instance in which the presence of a professional sports team has been linked to a boost in the local economy.” Further they determined that the teams result in a statistically negative impact on the retail and service sectors and a reduction in wages for bar and restaurant workers."

What do you propose they build there instead? Or just leave it as a dirt field?

You do understand it's being proposed as a multi-use facility correct with hundreds of other non-baseball related events there per year?

I'll give you that baseball on tv has declining numbers but I'm not sure it's actually affecting stadium attendance. I think you're overblowing that slightly and a lot of these places try to make it a more than a baseball event. It's a way to go out and do something, which is something you hear complained about every other day by a lot of Wichitans... "there's nothing to do here".

[ShockerDropOut]

There are a finite number of dollars for leasure activities in the community. Those dollars will just be spread to a different (baseball maybe) leasure activity. What this stadium and team does is give people a nice place to spend those dollars, and more importantly, improve the quality of life for everyone in the metro area. Sure, the could just leave the dirt and grass and not a lot would change economically in the short term. It is the larger, long-term outlook that the CAVErs are missing. Is this the right project? I don’t know, but I do know that doing nothing is not the answer either. At least someone is trying to improve the city. To me that is better than just being an obstructionist.

[Scott]

While MLB doesnt properly market their stars I find it hard pressed to believe that baseball as a game has not had the ability to connect with younger fans.

In fact I find that laughable.

The average MLB fan is now 57 years old - far older than the average NFL and NBA fan

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-ways-mlb-is-trying-to-get-younger-fans-interested-in-baseball-2017-02-22

https://www.wsj.com/articles/baseball-and-its-aging-fans-1471534364

https://www.barrons.com/articles/baseballs-aging-viewers-1497675901

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/baseballs-trouble-with-the-youth-curve--and-what-that-means-for-the-game/2015/04/05/2da36dca-d7e8-11e4-8103-fa84725dbf9d_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f15978af9ba1

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/us-sport/major-league-baseball/major-league-baseball-new-season-pitch-clock-wages-transfers-a8279731.html

[NCAABound]

Well we aren't getting an NBA or NFL franchise anytime soon. What would you recommend? No public facilities ever be built? Or just ones that align with your interests?

[Scott]

Putting 80 million taxpayer eggs into a single minor league baseball basket is the height of foolishness. Trusting team owners and developers pie in the sky estimates is stupid. The development is already being scaled back. I predict tbat most of the secondary development never gets done. If baseball was such a great thing for a city, why is New Orleans not trying to keep the team? What is the plan when the team leaves Wichita in a few years and taxpayers are still on the hook for the bonds? The wingnuts gave tickets away for free and still couldnt fill seats. The notion that AAA will be a significantly better draw is absurd. Have you been to a game at Eck lately? Free land on the river and 80 million of taxpayer investment would be attractive for lots of development that would not require a taxpayer funded stadium as a bribe.

[NCAABound]

Prime riverfront land? If this land is so valuable...why has the majority of riverfront sat empty for decades? Do you think a Ritz-Carlton hotel is going to be built along its shores with private money?

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

I remember vividly how CAVErs told us Intrust would be a waste of money and wouldn't do anything for downtown and blah blah blah. And of course, they cited endless studies by the freakin' CATO institute to "prove" their point (nevermind CATO is about as biased a source as one could possibly find).

It's obvious 10 years later IBA has proven its worth to the community and proven the CAVErs wrong. Yet here we are, still having this ridiculous argument about public facilities.

I guess to some, saving $11.37 on their taxes is more important than quality of life and a vibrant community.

[Scott]

I remember vividly how CAVErs told us Intrust would be a waste of money and wouldn't do anything for downtown and blah blah blah. And of course, they cited endless studies by the freakin' CATO institute to "prove" their point (nevermind CATO is about as biased a source as one could possibly find).

It's obvious 10 years later IBA has proven its worth to the community and proven the CAVErs wrong. Yet here we are, still having this ridiculous argument about public facilities.

I guess to some, saving $11.37 on their taxes is more important than quality of life and a vibrant community.

I noticed that none of the boosters have even attempted to refute the data and analysis, you just keep tossing out your cutesy nicknames and insults. You can call me a CAVER and I will call you a freaking moron. Acting like minor league baseball is some magic pill that will restore Wichita to greatness is so stupid, it is not even worthy of discussion. Do you have a list of the businesses that will be busting down the door to get to Wichita once we are among the cities blessed with taxpayer funded baseball?

[Scott]

Prime riverfront land? If this land is so valuable...why has the majority of riverfront sat empty for decades? Do you think a Ritz-Carlton hotel is going to be built along its shores with private money?

Private money? The city is giving the land away for free and putting up $80 million. I think Wichita deserves something much better than some lame AAA baseball team for that kind of investment. No other ideas were even considered.

[ShockerFever]

Putting 80 million taxpayer eggs into a single minor league baseball basket is the height of foolishness. Trusting team owners and developers pie in the sky estimates is stupid. The development is already being scaled back. I predict tbat most of the secondary development never gets done. If baseball was such a great thing for a city, why is New Orleans not trying to keep the team? What is the plan when the team leaves Wichita in a few years and taxpayers are still on the hook for the bonds? The wingnuts gave tickets away for free and still couldnt fill seats. The notion that AAA will be a significantly better draw is absurd. Have you been to a game at Eck lately? Free land on the river and 80 million of taxpayer investment would be attractive for lots of development that would not require a taxpayer funded stadium as a bribe.

I'm not sure you're worth engaging in discussion anymore. You're just kinda on here grumbling in general with no focus or counterfront to questions that have been asked about you. All you are here is to say no to everything in general. When asked what you would place there instead or do with a wasteland of public land there, you simply ignore it.

Well, you might as well get over it dude. Cuz you lost. Adios.

[ShockerFever]

Private money? The city is giving the land away for free and putting up $80 million. I think Wichita deserves something much better than some lame AAA baseball team for that kind of investment. No other ideas were even considered.

LIKE WHAT?

[SHOCKvalue]

No, LDS needed to go. I just think building the same thing in the same spot to lure a minor league baseball team to town at a cost of $80 million + is a boondoggle of epic proportions. That is a prime spot with riverfront access and views and we are wasting it on a minor league baseball stadium. The extreme hyperbole of the baseball fans and the "build it and they will come" crowd is pure fantasy. Baseball is a sport in decline with shrinking attendance, an aging fanbase and has shown no ability to connect with younger fans. Wichita cannot move forward by trying the same old same old failed ideas. Here are some reality based views of the value of taxpayer funded minor league baseball.

https://www.cato.org/blog/stadium-bo...-minor-leagues
https://journalistsresource.org/stud...ague-baseball/
https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/...winners-cities
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/s...orth-the-cost/
https://columbiametro.com/article/pe...-or-foul-ball/
https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publi...y-loss-leaders
https://business.tcnj.edu/wp-content...vised-2015.pdf


"Victor Matheson, a sports economist at College of the Holy Cross, says, “A good rule of thumb that economists use is to take what stadium boosters are telling you and move that one decimal place to the left, and that’s usually a good estimate of what you’re going to get.”

Michael, who has studied Chicago’s five major league pro franchises, says if every sports team in Chicago were to suddenly disappear, the impact on the Chicago economy would be a fraction of one percent. “A baseball team has about the same impact on a community as a midsize department store.”

Economists say the biggest reason sports teams don’t have much impact is that they don’t tend to spur new spending. Brad Humphreys, a professor of sports and entertainment at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, and Dennis Coates, an associate economics professor at the University of Maryland, completed a 30-year study of 37 pro sports franchises. Their report indicates they found: “no single instance in which the presence of a professional sports team has been linked to a boost in the local economy.” Further they determined that the teams result in a statistically negative impact on the retail and service sectors and a reduction in wages for bar and restaurant workers."

Are you familiar with the concept of a loss leader? That’s kinda what sports and entertainment facilities and franchises are to the overall cultural and social bottomline of a given city.

I’ve always been into things with IC engines and rubber tires. Never NOT lost money on one of them. Some of the times substantially. But the intangible value-added to my life is immense. When Bob the total dollar efficiency slave it sitting around his house on the weekend with the t-stat set at an uncomfortable level, with his spreadsheets spread out on his lonely and bored lap, people like me are out having a hell of a time spending money and watching depreciation add-up.

Fun costs money, and it’s always a sunk cost on paper.

[Scott]

LIKE WHAT?

Like the restaurants, shops and other secondary developments that are already proposed. Give local developers free land and $80 million and let them go crazy. We don't need to pay a bribe to a baseball team owner that has proven he will leave town as soon as the next sucker dangles a new stadium in front of him. Wichita is getting ready to give the Baby Cakes owner an $80 million dollar stadium and he is not putting up a single penny toward the construction costs. New Orleans built them a $21 million stadium and the Baby Cakes paid $5 million of that cost. Wichita is getting a much worse deal.

How about a different sport? Why does it have to be baseball just because that is what Longwell has a fetish for? Did the city even reach out to other alternatives? An $80 million public investment and acres of free land would appeal to a lot more than just one AAA team.

[ShockerFever]

Like the restaurants, shops and other secondary developments that are already proposed. Give local developers free land and $80 million and let them go crazy. We don't need to pay a bribe to a baseball team owner that has proven he will leave town as soon as the next sucker dangles a new stadium in front of him. Wichita is getting ready to give the Baby Cakes owner an $80 million dollar stadium and he is not putting up a single penny toward the construction costs. New Orleans built them a $21 million stadium and the Baby Cakes paid $5 million of that cost. Wichita is getting a much worse deal.

How about a different sport? Why does it have to be baseball just because that is what Longwell has a fetish for? Did the city even reach out to other alternatives? An $80 million public investment and acres of free land would appeal to a lot more than just one AAA team.

A 30 year lease is going to be signed so your first point is completely negated.

Secondly, you have to invest money to make money. You have to invest money on things to help quality of life. It's not just a "let's snap our fingers and things magically appear" scenario, especially for a place like Wichita. Our situation demands more investment because we have to. We aren't Dallas or Phoenix or Denver.

And finally, you sound like you're going for the soccer angle. I noticed you didn't specify a sport for some reason which lends me to believe you were in fear for some major ridicule backfire if you mentioned soccer. So what sport do you think can bring more of an economic impact to Wichita that's realistic? And Lord help you if you say soccer.

[WstateU]

Guess we're going to have to call him 'Scott Evil'...

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Iy9Q...vuEg/giphy.gif

[Kung Wu]

I say soccer! But I am more of a Minor League Baseball AND Soccer dude. Let's build TWO stadiums!

[ShockerFever]

Now that I'm thinking about it, Scott appears to be making this a soccer vs baseball thing. Wow. Embarrassing if true.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

I noticed that none of the boosters have even attempted to refute the data and analysis, you just keep tossing out your cutesy nicknames and insults. You can call me a CAVER and I will call you a freaking moron. Acting like minor league baseball is some magic pill that will restore Wichita to greatness is so stupid, it is not even worthy of discussion. Do you have a list of the businesses that will be busting down the door to get to Wichita once we are among the cities blessed with taxpayer funded baseball?

Refuting the "data" and "analysis" was done 15 years ago during the Vote Yea campaign. I'm not going to rehash those arguments. The "data" and "analysis" is often based on the premise that the ONLY thing that matters is the economics--and quality of life has no value.

I don't see anyone arguing that minor league baseball is a magic pill. Stadium proponents seem to be arguing that the stadium and team will have a positive impact, and that it will part of a larger strategy to improve Wichita's quality of life and attractiveness as a place to live.

Take it from someone who lives in one of the hottest economies in the country: no one moves here because taxes are low. Taxes are one the least of our concerns here. We have two--TWO!!!--of those evil taxpayer funded stadiums here (GASP!!!!). We even tax ourselves to support arts, culture, and parks. We have the largest performing arts complex outside of New York City, and you guessed it--built by taxpayer money (Oh NOOO!!!!). I guess we're just doomed. Our biggest problem is dealing with the people wanting to move here in droves and figuring out how to deal with the "problem" of having more jobs available than applicants.

But don't learn anything from us. Noooo. Just keep on going with your failed premise that low taxes and a lack of public investment is solid economics. Because Wichita's economy is SOOOO much better than Denver.

[Kung Wu]

Yeah, but to be fair, Denver's city council was passing around a blunt while they were approving those deals. "Let's just goooo with the flooooow, maaan."