Markis McDuffie 6-7 SF 2015 - COMMITTED TO WSU

[ShockTalk]

McDuffie is absolutely a SF. So is Zach Brown and Evan Wessel. Alas, they play a stretch 4. McDuffie, with the possibility of being 6-9 plus, would be similarly suited to play out of position should the need arise.

Good point (as unfortunate as that point may be). At least Evan has some beef and strength. I guess Aaron Ellis played PF at 6'9" and 210, but McDuffie is quite away from that size.

I don't even want to think of McDuffie playing a "stretch 4". Ugh.

[shockmonster]

Almost everyone is playing a 4-1 today similar to the pro game. A stretch 4 is no different than a 3. In today's game, they spread the defense out, sometimes with 5 guys facing the basket on offense. They may have one -1with his back to the basket more but they have two guards at top of the key and two more at the corners. Drake was playing the 4-1 with 6'5 players playing the positions that Cle did last year. They had one 7 footer playing with a whole bunch of guards. This places more pressure on defense but if you have 6'8 players like McDuffie, 6'7 players like Kelly, 6'6 players like Zach Brown, you don't have as many weaknesses on defense and rebounding.

[ShockTalk]

Cle was a stretch 4 in college. He played mostly on the perimeter but was taught to expand his game to include playing with his back to the basket and driving it to the rim. Some people put basketball players in a box. I guarantee you that if Baker saw an opening to post up with his back to the basket, he could do it. Magic was a point guard but he posted up from time to time when he saw a mis-match because he wanted to score. They are basketball players, not robots.

According to his coach, McDuffie will be 6'9 or maybe even 6'10. He compared him to Durant. Durant is a perimeter player who can post up or take the ball to the rim to score because he is a basketball player.

I have no problem with any position player being able to post up his defender. However, there is a reason Magic and Durant can do what you say. They have/had skills slightly above most. Evan, playing the 4, generally will not have success posting up his PF defender due to his lack of height. Brown is taller, but lacks the build. At this time, so does McDuffie. We most certainly can revisit him playing the 4 when he does reach 6'9", 220+. Until then, I hope to see him at the 3.

[wufan]

I have no problem with any position player being able to post up his defender. However, there is a reason Magic and Durant can do what you say. They have/had skills slightly above most. Evan, playing the 4, generally will not have success posting up his PF defender due to his lack of height. Brown is taller, but lacks the build. At this time, so does McDuffie. We most certainly can revisit him playing the 4 when he does reach 6'9", 220+. Until then, I hope to see him at the 3.

Brown, at 6-6, 215, isn't too small to play the PF. It's certainly not his natural position, but I like him getting some minutes there.

[ShockTalk]

Almost everyone is playing a 4-1 today similar to the pro game. A stretch 4 is no different than a 3. In today's game, they spread the defense out, sometimes with 5 guys facing the basket on offense. They may have one -1with his back to the basket more but they have two guards at top of the key and two more at the corners. Drake was playing the 4-1 with 6'5 players playing the positions that Cle did last year. They had one 7 footer playing with a whole bunch of guards. This places more pressure on defense but if you have 6'8 players like McDuffie, 6'7 players like Kelly, 6'6 players like Zach Brown, you don't have as many weaknesses on defense and rebounding.

First, I don't want to be Drake. Second, Kelly at 6'7" 230 has 60 pounds on McDuffie. Cle could do it well, not only because of his skills, but he was 6'9" 220. Brown is 6'6" 210. There is a difference.

[ShockTalk]

Brown, at 6-6, 215, isn't too small to play the PF. It's certainly not his natural position, but I like him getting some minutes there.

This may work in the Valley, not in the Dance.

[shockmonster]

I have no problem with any position player being able to post up his defender. However, there is a reason Magic and Durant can do what you say. They have/had skills slightly above most. Evan, playing the 4, generally will not have success posting up his PF defender due to his lack of height. Brown is taller, but lacks the build. At this time, so does McDuffie. We most certainly can revisit him playing the 4 when he does reach 6'9", 220+. Until then, I hope to see him at the 3.

But if Evan at 6'4 can take his 6'7 post and take him on the perimeter and allows McDuffie who is6'9 and playing against a 6'6 3 and Baker who is playing against a 6'4 guard who can be posted up, it can still work. The key to the 4-1 is proper spacing, spreading the court, picking and rolling to the basket, the ability to pass and play two man games, etc. Google 4-1 and see what can be done with basketball players who are flexibile and have skills in many areas (shooting the 3, passing, driving to the rim, playing with their back to the rim, driving and dishing to the 3, offensive rebounding, pick and pop, etc.). Early in the year, I saw Baker post up more than he is doing now. He can do that too. The weakness to a team having a 7 footer that only can plod and play under the basket is that many teams are stretching that 7 footer out.

[ShockTalk]

McDuffie is absolutely a SF. So is Zach Brown and Evan Wessel. Alas, they play a stretch 4. McDuffie, with the possibility of being 6-9 plus, would be similarly suited to play out of position should the need arise.

Brown and Wessel are playing the 4 out of necessity, not because it gives us an advantage.

[shockmonster]

This may work in the Valley, not in the Dance.

If you watch Louisville, they are doing it too. Most teams are doing this. The difference is that Kentucky and even Louisville have a 7 footer like McCauley who can guard a 6'7 player. Most schools like us had Garrett Stutz or even Drake has a 7 footer who isn't that flexible of a basketball player.

[wufan]

Brown and Wessel are playing the 4 out of necessity, not because it gives us an advantage.

Yes.

[ShockTalk]

But if Evan at 6'4 can take his 6'7 post and take him on the perimeter and allows McDuffie who is6'9 and playing against a 6'6 3 and Baker who is playing against a 6'4 guard who can be posted up, it can still work. The key to the 4-1 is proper spacing, spreading the court, picking and rolling to the basket, the ability to pass and play two man games, etc. Google 4-1 and see what can be done with basketball players who are flexibile and have skills in many areas (shooting the 3, passing, driving to the rim, playing with their back to the rim, driving and dishing to the 3, offensive rebounding, pick and pop, etc.). Early in the year, I saw Baker post up more than he is doing now. He can do that too. The weakness to a team having a 7 footer that only can plod and play under the basket is that many teams are stretching that 7 footer out.

@shockmonster:, I don't disagree with the 4-1, but you use it when it creates an advantage for you. Your better teams have front lines of 6'8"/6'9" 220-230 (think Cle) that can do just what you are saying and they will beat your 6'6" 210 player.

[shockmonster]

Brown and Wessel are playing the 4 out of necessity, not because it gives us an advantage.

No you are right. Let's take Kentucky. They have the Harrison bothers who are both 6'6 or 6'7 who are playing the 1,2, or 3. They have 6'9 players who are playing the 4. However, those 6'9 players are able to guard smaller players because in addition to their being tall, rangy, strong, and great leapers, they can also run full court. They don't have too many holes in their games except for between the ears early in the year. Most teams have to accept athletic weaknesses if they are tall, or shooting weakness, etc.

Kelly is not far from being better than Wessel because he has all the athletic ability at 6'7 and 230 that Wessel has at this time. But between the ears, Kelly isn't as good as Wessel yet. In addition, he doesn't have as many skills between the ears, and doing the little things that Wessel does. He may be there by the end of the year.

[shockmonster]

@shockmonster:, I don't disagree with the 4-1, but you use it when it creates an advantage for you. Your better teams have front lines of 6'8"/6'9" 220-230 (think Cle) that can do just what you are saying and they will beat your 6'6" 210 player.

You don't have to agree with it but most of the Top 20 teams are using it already.

[ShockTalk]

If you watch Louisville, they are doing it too. Most teams are doing this. The difference is that Kentucky and even Louisville have a 7 footer like McCauley who can guard a 6'7 player. Most schools like us had Garrett Stutz or even Drake has a 7 footer who isn't that flexible of a basketball player.

When I said "This may work in the Valley, not the Dance", I mean US using that smaller player like we are doing now. You made my point with your example of what UK and Louisville would do to us with 6'6" 210 or 6'4" 220 PFs.

[wufan]

You don't have to agree with it but most of the Top 20 teams are using it already.

I think what he's saying is that we don't have the right personnel to play the 4-1 (which I believe Marshall prefers). We also don't has the personnel to play the more traditional 3-2 or 2-3. I do believe that Nurger, Kelly, Hamilton, McDuffie, Morris, Brown and Shamet could be quite excellent at the 4-1 in time.