Conference Re-Alignment -- Not over, and has Football here

[Aargh]

Let me add a whole new wrinkle.

While I'm skeptical of football at the level the MVC plays, could WSU start with a non-scholarship program? Cessna is good enough for that, there are no Title IX requirements, unless WSU would have to offer non-scholarship sports to an equal number of women.

The downside is BORING FOOTBALL! with equally incompetent competition.

But ---the only cost is equipment and a low-budget coaching staff. It would probably only take a couple of thousand people per game to hit a break-even point. I think that could happen. I'd go, just to watch football and support WSU. If both teams are bad, that can make both of them look good and there could be plenty of exciting plays.

The upside is - you get a marching band. You get a traditional college Saturday in fall. If that level could be self-sustaining, produce enough donor dollars to support the program, or even be profitable, that could grease the skids for moving to MVC-level football with an eye toward moving past that.

That would be a fairly low-risk starting point that might build some community support.

[The Mad Hatter]

Let me add a whole new wrinkle.

While I'm skeptical of football at the level the MVC plays, could WSU start with a non-scholarship program? Cessna is good enough for that, there are no Title IX requirements, unless WSU would have to offer non-scholarship sports to an equal number of women.

The downside is BORING FOOTBALL! with equally incompetent competition.

But ---the only cost is equipment and a low-budget coaching staff. It would probably only take a couple of thousand people per game to hit a break-even point. I think that could happen. I'd go, just to watch football and support WSU. If both teams are bad, that can make both of them look good and there could be plenty of exciting plays.

The upside is - you get a marching band. You get a traditional college Saturday in fall. If that level could be self-sustaining, produce enough donor dollars to support the program, or even be profitable, that could grease the skids for moving to MVC-level football with an eye toward moving past that.

That would be a fairly low-risk starting point that might build some community support.

The most likely option for following this model is the Pioneer League (whose members include both Drake and Butler).

http://www.pioneer-football.org/pfl/default/

[DUShock]

I don't mind being/devolving into a D-II institution IF the programs are top 10 pretty much each and every season. Just win baby!

thats like sleeping with a butterface

I agree entirely.

The landscape of college athletics is what it is. I am reminded of the adage "a definition of insanity is doing the same thing again & again while expecting a different result". In all probability without getting back into the gridiron in some form the overall condition of the athletic department will continue to decline. The long term situation facing our beloved alma mater is not good and we are not only on the outside looking in but with each passing season and conference realignment we're further and further away from the window, which provides a view of the inside. In short, with each conference change we are moving in the wrong direction.

My position is that if the leadership of the university is determined to take this course then we might as well not tolerate any form of mediocrity at any level.

Go Shocks!!!!

[60Shock]

Unfortunately, DUShock, I agree with your bleak prediction of the future.

But, what a morbid future it will be. Are you people out there actually willing to accept this? If you are, you have given up and surrendered without even putting up a fight. No one has said it is going to be easy or inexpensive, but we need to be looking at ways we can succeed in lieu of throwing up our hands and crying it can't be done.

Are you really willing to accept mediocrity at a lower level?

Think what you will be facing as you slip from Div 1 and below and perhaps even lower.

The most exciting schools you will likely be playing in the future witl be the ones you play exibition games against now. Will you be satisified when the stars of your future basketball and baseball teams wouldn't even be bench warmers today?

And the worst outcome of this entire dreadful scenario is - KU HAS WON!

Now there is only one other D-1 school left in the state. But the good news is, and there is always good news, for some - KU will no doubt play you now!

[The Mad Hatter]

Unfortunately, DUShock, I agree with your bleak prediction of the future.

But, what a morbid future it will be. Are you people out there actually willing to accept this? If you are, you have given up and surrendered without even putting up a fight. No one has said it is going to be easy or inexpensive, but we need to be looking at ways we can succeed in lieu of throwing up our hands and crying it can't be done.

Are you really willing to accept mediocrity at a lower level?

Think what you will be facing as you slip from Div 1 and below and perhaps even lower.

The most exciting schools you will likely be playing in the future witl be the ones you play exibition games against now. Will you be satisified when the stars of your future basketball and baseball teams wouldn't even be bench warmers today?

And the worst outcome of this entire dreadful scenario is - KU HAS WON!

Now there is only one other D-1 school left in the state. But the good news is, and there is always good news, for some - KU will no doubt play you now!

As I have said earlier in this thread, this is precisely what irritates me about a number of those that make the pro-football argument.

This is not an argument about why there is a sustainable plan for football, it is fortune telling and fear mongering about the future.

It has as much credibility as saying that we shouldn't bother with football because I know with certainty that the apocalypse is in 2012, so why bother.

If you are willing to bet the farm on the accuracy of your knowledge of the future, you must have invested heavily in jet-packs and the segway as the future of transportation.

There are good arguments for football and good argument against it (I happen to find the latter more compelling, but understand the former). Yelling that the sky is falling are not among the good arguments on either side.

[tw805]

Unfortunately, DUShock, I agree with your bleak prediction of the future.

But, what a morbid future it will be. Are you people out there actually willing to accept this? If you are, you have given up and surrendered without even putting up a fight. No one has said it is going to be easy or inexpensive, but we need to be looking at ways we can succeed in lieu of throwing up our hands and crying it can't be done.

Are you really willing to accept mediocrity at a lower level?

Think what you will be facing as you slip from Div 1 and below and perhaps even lower.

The most exciting schools you will likely be playing in the future witl be the ones you play exibition games against now. Will you be satisified when the stars of your future basketball and baseball teams wouldn't even be bench warmers today?

And the worst outcome of this entire dreadful scenario is - KU HAS WON!

Now there is only one other D-1 school left in the state. But the good news is, and there is always good news, for some - KU will no doubt play you now!

As I have said earlier in this thread, this is precisely what irritates me about a number of those that make the pro-football argument.

This is not an argument about why there is a sustainable plan for football, it is fortune telling and fear mongering about the future.

It has as much credibility as saying that we shouldn't bother with football because I know with certainty that the apocalypse is in 2012, so why bother.

If you are willing to bet the farm on the accuracy of your knowledge of the future, you must have invested heavily in jet-packs and the segway as the future of transportation.

There are good arguments for football and good argument against it (I happen to find the latter more compelling, but understand the former). Yelling that the sky is falling are not among the good arguments on either side.

But this is precisely what the anti-football crowd says, just in the inverse. They predict with certainty that the re-institution of football will bankrupt the entire athletic department. No one can predict how either avenue will turn out. We just have to assess the risks of trying versus staying with the status quo. The problem I see with the latter argument is that no one has any idea how long the status quo will be around.

[1972Shocker]

Are you people out there actually willing to accept this? If you are, you have given up and surrendered without even putting up a fight. No one has said it is going to be easy or inexpensive, but we need to be looking at ways we can succeed in lieu of throwing up our hands and crying it can't be done.

We can look at and discuss ways to succeed, as we have been doing for many years now, until the cows come home. But looking at and discussing what we should do on a message board or internet pledge sites has little impact (or at least that appears to have been the case). Unfortunately, ShockerNet does not appear to be populated with the deep pocketed individuals and power brokers that need to be motivated to make bringing back football happen.

Some say the money is out there and is just waiting for a credible plan to get behind. That may or may not be the case. If it was the case I would think we would be seing more momentum and activity beyond this message board.

I have some hope that a day will come when such a real and meaningful effort will materialize. Until then I believe we will be stuck in the looking at and discussing mode which will include pros and cons.

[Kung Wu]

Let me add a whole new wrinkle.

While I'm skeptical of football at the level the MVC plays, could WSU start with a non-scholarship program? Cessna is good enough for that, there are no Title IX requirements, unless WSU would have to offer non-scholarship sports to an equal number of women.

The downside is BORING FOOTBALL! with equally incompetent competition.

But ---the only cost is equipment and a low-budget coaching staff. It would probably only take a couple of thousand people per game to hit a break-even point. I think that could happen. I'd go, just to watch football and support WSU. If both teams are bad, that can make both of them look good and there could be plenty of exciting plays.

The upside is - you get a marching band. You get a traditional college Saturday in fall. If that level could be self-sustaining, produce enough donor dollars to support the program, or even be profitable, that could grease the skids for moving to MVC-level football with an eye toward moving past that.

That would be a fairly low-risk starting point that might build some community support.

New wrinkle? That was the main reason why I posted the the article earlier in this thread. That's exactly how they got the ball started.

[Veritas]

It's difficult to predict the future, and arguments all over the board can be made on what negative/positive impact dropping football has had on WSU.
From a personal standpoint, I'm a bit ashamed and embarrassed that the Shox dropped football in '86.

**Ashamed in the sense that many in the athletic department led by LPerkins, and the Administration did not dig in and simply gave up - which I guess was the easy thing to do although not the right thing to do.
They made an inspirational movie about Marshall's football team and how they rebuilt. At WSU, they simply closed the football gates. Shameful!

**Embarrassed by the fact that WSU still belongs to a sinking conference that has steadily lost prestige and important members over the past 40 years (Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulsa as an example), and WSU just sits there fat, dumb, happy, and content with the miserable Missouri Valley Conference and wonders why no one gives a Ratz Azz why WSU fans don't get excited about playing UNI, UE, SIU, ISU(blue), etc...

The ending of football did not see a meteoric rise in WSU athletics. In fact, if it was not for the baseball program peak in the late 80's and early 90's, we would have seen a Jimmy Carter sense of malaise hang over the WSU campus.

What we do have are passionate fans in the state's largest city who all have a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Unfortunately, as time goes on, and the alumni continues to be dominated by part-time commuters and international students, the backbone of support will continue to atrophy until 20-30 years from now, few will care.


If the Shox started football again, I for one would support it, but would not be excited to see the Shox play in the Missouri Valley Football Conference.

However..... It's a start to bigger and better things if we want it.
-- to position WSU to take advantage of an opportunity of moving to a better conference
-- to allow WSU to form a new conference with schools such as Tulsa, MSU, NTSU, and perhaps Rice, TCU, etc...
-- in opening doors that otherwise remained closed without football


Football is not just a sport. It is about opportunity. It's about changing the demographics of students and supporters. It's about an investment in the future.

How many of your sons, daughters, and relatives are choosing WSU as their school of choice? It used to be that kids in South Central Kansas chose between WSU and KU with a few heading to K-State. Now it seems more and more are headed to KU, K-State, and BuCo Juco.

The time for bringing back football is now. He who rejects change is the architect of decay.

[SB Shock]

It's difficult to predict the future, and arguments all over the board can be made on what negative/positive impact dropping football has had on WSU.
From a personal standpoint, I'm a bit ashamed and embarrassed that the Shox dropped football in '86.

**Ashamed in the sense that many in the athletic department led by LPerkins, and the Administration did not dig in and simply gave up - which I guess was the easy thing to do although not the right thing to do.
They made an inspirational movie about Marshall's football team and how they rebuilt. At WSU, they simply closed the football gates. Shameful!

**Embarrassed by the fact that WSU still belongs to a sinking conference that has steadily lost prestige and important members over the past 40 years (Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulsa as an example), and WSU just sits there fat, dumb, happy, and content with the miserable Missouri Valley Conference and wonders why no one gives a Ratz Azz why WSU fans don't get excited about playing UNI, UE, SIU, ISU(blue), etc...

The ending of football did not see a meteoric rise in WSU athletics. In fact, if it was not for the baseball program peak in the late 80's and early 90's, we would have seen a Jimmy Carter sense of malaise hang over the WSU campus.

What we do have are passionate fans in the state's largest city who all have a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Unfortunately, as time goes on, and the alumni continues to be dominated by part-time commuters and international students, the backbone of support will continue to atrophy until 20-30 years from now, few will care.


If the Shox started football again, I for one would support it, but would not be excited to see the Shox play in the Missouri Valley Football Conference.

However..... It's a start to bigger and better things if we want it.
-- to position WSU to take advantage of an opportunity of moving to a better conference
-- to allow WSU to form a new conference with schools such as Tulsa, MSU, NTSU, and perhaps Rice, TCU, etc...
-- in opening doors that otherwise remained closed without football


Football is not just a sport. It is about opportunity. It's about changing the demographics of students and supporters. It's about an investment in the future.

How many of your sons, daughters, and relatives are choosing WSU as their school of choice? It used to be that kids in South Central Kansas chose between WSU and KU with a few heading to K-State. Now it seems more and more are headed to KU, K-State, and BuCo Juco.

The time for bringing back football is now. He who rejects change is the architect of decay.

Until WSU has a AD willing to stand up and say what you just said and provide the leadership, sweat, toil and accept the risk and put his reputation on the line to make it happen, football won't happen.

[Snapshot9]

I would like to see Football back at WSU, but I don't think it will happen unless our National and Local Economies improve greatly, and frankly, I don't see that happening. Half of Wichita is unemployed or working in a lower level job than what they once had. Visionaries like to say the support is there, but noone knows for sure if it is or not.

As far as whether students go to KU, KSU, or WSU, these people fail to mention one of the most important factors in their decision, and that is the cost involved in going to one of the three schools, and WSU is cheaper than either KU or KSU.

Frankly, when I went to college (a large school), I did not attend any football games, just a couple of basketball games because I had a family, I had a part time job, the tickets were too expensive for me, and I was not at college for a good time, I was there to get my degree.

[1972Shocker]

Until WSU has a AD willing to stand up and say what you just said and provide the leadership, sweat, toil and accept the risk and put his reputation on the line to make it happen, football won't happen.

And perhaps a University President firmly on board also. If the President is not firmly behind a move to bring football back it is unlikely he or she will give the AD the green light to move ahead.

[Good News]

I don't have a dog in the football fight, but this is a timely article with some interesting information:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2010-08-11-football-spurs-buzz-growth_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

[ShockTalk]

I don't have a dog in the football fight, but this is a timely article with some interesting information:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...terstitialskip

After reading that, I'm not sure what that might say about Wichita State, its students (if non-supportive), its fandom, and community. Throughout this whole economic downturn, I've felt the Wichita area has held up better than most. I, too, have tried to take a neutral position on football, but have been active in posing questions as to "why not football". There have been a number of posters, whose opinions I respect, strongly oppose bringing back football. What's so different about WSU and Wichita than these other schools who say they have done a thorough study of this issue and are adding football? What say ye.

[Kung Wu]

Thanks for posting that article -- very timely indeed!

Some interesting facts about U. of South Alabama from the article:

South Alabama students OK'd a $150 per-semester fee to help finance its program.

That appears to fund over 80% of the annual operating budget, by itself!

South Alabama's annual football budget is around $5.3 million.

14,500 students * $150/semester fee * 2 semesters/yr = $4.35 million.

And they will be in the FBS in about 3 years, so apparently that's not tied to performance:

In 2013 they become football members of the Sun Belt Conference in the top-tier Football Bowl Subdivision

Very interesting.