Associate AD Pracht leaves for Arkansas

[The Mad Hatter]

I think Veritas is right.

BTW Tulsa dropped baseball about 5 years before WSU dropped football. I don't think the 2 issues are related.

I believe that GS re-starting the WSU program with a lot of OK kids lead to Tulsa dropping baseball. Tulsa was a national power in baseball in the 70s. When Gene re-started the failed, dormant WSU program he recruited heavily in OK stealing lots of kids from Tulsa.

Tulsa dropped in baseball. Facing title 9 challenges and all of a sudden a continued downward movement in baseball due to WSU, they dropped baseball.

Like I said about 5 years before WSU dropped football.

In spite of being 5 years apart, both schools dropped a sport because, after the implementation of Title IX, there was financial strain in keeping all of the men's programs that they had before they had to maintain an equal number of women's scholarships.

Neither school had the money to add enough women's scholarships to keep all their men's sports and be financially solvent. Tulsa dropped baseball. WSU dropped football. The 5 year gap is merely due to Tulsa recognizing their problem quicker, while WSU (as Aargh mentions above) was spending those years getting into debt.

Doubtless, Title IX was not the only factor, but I think there is very good reason to see it as a core underlying factor of both situations.

[Veritas]

Throw away all of the scientific/statistical causation/correlation arguments.

Then all you have is your opinion. When people look at your opinion they will judge them by these standards and then they will find them wanting.

To think people choose college because of football is not valid argument. I would argue that is probably one of the worst reasons. Students choose a certain college because academics, cost, financial aid, size of classes, reputation of school.

If I polled an Ivy league school, I'm sure those particular students and parents would vote differently than those South Central Kansans choosing between WSU and KU.

[The Mad Hatter]

Throw away all of the scientific/statistical causation/correlation arguments.

Then all you have is your opinion. When people look at your opinion they will judge them by these standards and then they will find them wanting.

To think people choose college because of football is not valid argument. I would argue that is probably one of the worst reasons. Students choose a certain college because academics, cost, financial aid, size of classes, reputation of school.

If I polled an Ivy league school, I'm sure those particular students and parents would vote differently than those South Central Kansans choosing between WSU and KU.

The data for that chart comes from Art & Science Group LLC's Student Poll data and from the Cooperative Institute Research Program (CIRP) Freshman Survey. The CIRP Freshman Survey has been taken every year since 1966 and is administered at over 700 colleges and universities nationwide. Over 272,000 students participated in the 2007 survey from which this chart draws data. Here is the full article: http://www.artsci.com/studentpoll/v6n2/

I'd say the data reflects a pretty broad variety of institutions, but if you have a 700+ institution study that suggests that football is the factor you claim it is, I'm all ears.

[Veritas]

Mad Hatter, I do indeed believe that dropping football CAUSED a decrease in enrollment, CAUSED a decrease in campus life/vibrancy, and CAUSED a decrease in alumni pride which just so happened correlated with the decline of other sports because of a lack of overall donations which was CAUSED by dropping football.
To your point, it might be more difficult to anticipate the causal relationship of moving to a better conference if WSU re-instated football, but certainly not difficult to measure the negative causal impact of dropping it in 1986.

Throw away all of the scientific/statistical causation/correlation arguments. If Perkins had to make the decision all over again and knowing what you know now, would you vote in favor of dropping football or keeping it?

I would have fired Perkins, invested more money into the program, torn down Cessna stadium and rebuild it without the track into a state-of-the-art facility and stayed close to WSU's closest rival (Tulsa) in moving to a different conference.
Frustratingly, the lack of communication from those that SHOULD have a better grasp of the complexity of the issues and refuse to address the issues indicate they may well be C.A.V.E. dwellers and we'll never ever climb out of the MoVal quicksand.

1. You miss my point on causality all-together. I understood the argument you were making, but there is no proof that it is true. It is one theory about enrollment numbers, but there are any number of other plausible explanations, including those (shockingly) that have nothing to do with sports. It is one thing to suggest that the loss of football might be responsible for enrollment decline (if indirectly). It is another thing to assert it to definitively be the case.

2. You do realize that to follow the path Tulsa did they dropped baseball don't you? Both were in a similar position, one chose to drop football one chose to drop baseball. If I were deciding between the WSU football team and WSU baseball team in the late 80s, I would choose the baseball team every time. (See my note on Title IX above).

Then again, since in your scenario we apparently magically have whatever amount of money we need to construct "a state-of-the-art facility" maybe we could keep football. Plus, I guess in your scenario we also magically have money to build a separate facility exclusively for track and field since you chose to rip the track out of Cessna. Hypotheticals allow for a world of possibility as long as you aren't hampered by all those pesky little details like funding.

3. Once again, you choose to insult the motives of people that disagree with you and call them names rather than stick to the issues. Calling someone a "C.A.V.E. dweller" isn't a real argument. I could just as easily call you an insecure loser with a little brother complex that has bought into the BCS kool-aid that you need football to be a real athletic department. I could say that, but it would probably be unfair to your true motives and, even if it was accurate, would not really answer the question of whether your argument was valid.

Look, I understand the arguments for football, and even sympathize with some of them. I just don't find them compelling at the end of the day, but I certainly don't mind people making the case. What I do mind is people glossing over the real and obvious obstacles and insulting the motives of anyone who dares to point them out.

I understand your point Mad Hatter, but no documented proof does not make fiction out of fact. Losing football seems to be the common denominator in enrollment decline, decrease in campus vibrancy, and a malaise in pride briefly interrupted by the CWS Championship of 1989. The long reaching tentacles of losing football extend deeply into the Wichita psyche.

Calling someone a "C.A.V.E. dweller is appropriate if that particular Citizen is Against Virtually Everything that would add a better way of life or in this paritular case a better campus and athletic program. Don't take offense or become defensive if that particular definition of a C.A.V.E dweller doesn't apply to you.

We were at a crossroads in 1986 with WSU athletics, and the wrong decision was made. I don't recall the herculean efffort of AD Perkins to raise money. I don't seem to recall the red flag being lofted to bring our attention to the money challenges. Like all man made endeavors, there reaches a maturity stage where one must re-invest, re-tool, re-invent, re-commit, or simply close shop. WSU had other options and didn't need to close shop on the football program. There were some strategic mistakes made (Cessna stadium's design, remaining in the MoVal...) and rather than right the ship, we abandoned the ship and may never be able to board it again. While rebuilding a new stadium might not have happened immediately, there could have been a 5-year plan, or something done to generate excitement about the future.

I do recall Perkins getting a pat on the back from the NCAA for "cleaning up" the athletic department and soon departing for the east coast, while WSU is left with an empty stadium that was left to rot and rust as a huge reminder to Perkins' failure as an AD.

IMO, money and conference affiliation are the obstacles for bringing back WSU football. IMO, money is the least of those challenges.
One thing is certain. Most of us agree that we'd love to see WSU move to a stronger conference and without football, our options are severely limited.

[Veritas]

Throw away all of the scientific/statistical causation/correlation arguments.

Then all you have is your opinion. When people look at your opinion they will judge them by these standards and then they will find them wanting.

To think people choose college because of football is not valid argument. I would argue that is probably one of the worst reasons. Students choose a certain college because academics, cost, financial aid, size of classes, reputation of school.

If I polled an Ivy league school, I'm sure those particular students and parents would vote differently than those South Central Kansans choosing between WSU and KU.

The data for that chart comes from Art & Science Group LLC's Student Poll data and from the Cooperative Institute Research Program (CIRP) Freshman Survey. The CIRP Freshman Survey has been taken every year since 1966 and is administered at over 700 colleges and universities nationwide. Over 272,000 students participated in the 2007 survey from which this chart draws data. Here is the full article: http://www.artsci.com/studentpoll/v6n2/

I'd say the data reflects a pretty broad variety of institutions, but if you have a 700+ institution study that suggests that football is the factor you claim it is, I'm all ears.

Come on Mad Hatter... Because the vast majority of those institutions have football, never had it, or have not experienced it being taken away. Don't let statistics get in the way of logic and reasoning. As I wrote before. Give me a sample of South Central Kansas or even Wichitans who are deciding between WSU and KU (or even K-State).

[Veritas]

Happy Fourth of July everyone and thanks to those that served.
I'm off to enjoy another great American Tradition (besides football) which is the 4th of July celebrations.
God Bless America.

[The Mad Hatter]

IMO, money and conference affiliation are the obstacles for bringing back WSU football. IMO, money is the least of those challenges.

Since you have said that you don't think money is that big of an issue, why don't we invest these reserves of money you believe exist into academic programs to attract the best students? Surely we would prefer getting the kind of students that are motivated to come to a university because of the schools academics than the kind that make their college choice on the basis of which school has football, correct? Surely the high level donors tend to be better educated as a group and understand the value of quality academic programs and would be motivated to donate to those causes.

For all those that speak of the vision and leadership to bring back football, why don't we advocate for the vision and leadership to have the best academic programs of any state school in Kansas? It is a far more noble aim than bringing back football and far more central to the mission of a university. If we are going to focus our resources, vision, and leadership on something, why shouldn't it be on that? Do you think that prospective students would really not come to the school with the best and most prestigious academic programs because the school didn't have football?

[tgcshock]

For all those that speak of the vision and leadership to bring back football, why don't we advocate for the vision and leadership to have the best academic programs of any state school in Kansas? It is a far more noble aim than bringing back football and far more central to the mission of a university.

Maybe this kind of leadership would prevent proposals like the recent one to abolish the Physics department!

[1stThings1st]

Wow, There have been many changes in a short perioid of time. Looks like most are moving to where they want to live, or getting new responsibilities, working with larger programs. Well this is an opportunity for ES and Shocker sports to make positive changes! There are many excellent people out there. Time for ES to surround himself with great people. I am glad we are looking for a XC coach and not baseball, or basketball. This is an opportunity!

[pogo]

First of all I agree with veritas in so far that WSU actually had more students (student hours) than ksu before WSU discontinued football. I also believe that the reason WSU has lost traditional students is related to the loss of the football program. WSU is an urban university and will always have a large number of non traditional students and will serve to be a valuable resource for those students. My father was one of those students and WSU afforded him the opportunity to complete his degree and provide a better living for himself and family. I was a semi traditional student in that I worked part time and went to school at WSU full time. I did attend football and basketball games and had a great time at those events. Later in life I took my kids to football games and those times were and remain special. Perkins is not the one that made the decision to discontinue football but was done at the behest of warren armstrong. Could more have been done to save the program...sure. Money is and always will be the driving force for any change at any University. Is WSU attractive to other conferences? NO. Would a football program that was mediocre make WSU more attractive? NO. It takes committment by the supporters of this endeavor and so far there has been little to none. I would like to see a five or ten year plan by the athletic department for the future of WSU athletics. I would like it to include a panel to make a proposal to bring back football and propose a plan as to how that can be accomplished along with a new stadium proposal. Make the propsal and let it progress on its merits or fail due to lack of money or interest.

[WuDrWu]

Just for clarity's sake...

Are you calling for regime change, or simply voicing an escalating concern?

For the record, I would fall into the latter category.

I don't believe that our athletic program has in place at this time the proper leadership to move forward and cultivate a product that is in line with what at least I believe is due this University, city and supporting base.

With as many things going on in college athletics right now, it seems to me that at a minimum a midterm and/or long term plan should be made public.

However, I don't believe we have a plan for anything right now beyond hoping that we don't lose any more coaches.

BUT, that's just my opinion and one of the things message boards are for, lively debate and discussion.

[WuDrWu]

Happy Fourth of July everyone and thanks to those that served.
God Bless America.

Now THAT'S true brilliance. :clap:



Following those comments, may God bless each and every one of the brave souls that have fought and served to protect that which we too often take for granted every day.

205 heros in our Armed Forces have made the ultimate sacrifice just this year, and just related to Operation Enduring Freedom.

May God bless their souls and comfort those families and friends of the fallen. I pray for them and hope their sacrifice does not go wasted.

[proshox]

enrollment levels

Maybe the statistics are within this thread, but I seem to recall enrollment at WSU peaked in the very late 80s which would be post football. Since then the enrollment has correlated pretty well with the ups and downs of the economy. (I am working from distant memories from my days as a student in 2000)

I would also suggest that enrollment at WSU probably has been hurt by a number of factors since the late 80s. First, the local community colleges have stepped up their game in a big way. Butler's growth in Andover after 1994 was significant. Second, the online programs have been very popular and profitable for that matter. Finally, as Wichita has become more affluent local students have found it easier to relocate for college.

I have been a big proponent of almost every activity to improve the City of Wichita. With that being said, I think the football debate has almost no credibility. The long reach of this debate has actually held WSU back in other sports because the administrations in 1990s was scared to offend the football crowd.... Lets focus on improving the state of the programs we do have. If we were winning the Valley every year in basketball and beating a few BCS programs every year it wouldn't matter which league WSU played in.

PS I have very intelligent friends who think WSU would be better off in pathetic basketball league. 7HT - where are you?

[Shoxtastic]

It appears fortune cat agrees with Doc about the future of Shocker athletics...

[shocker3]

First of all I agree with veritas in so far that WSU actually had more students (student hours) than ksu before WSU discontinued football. I also believe that the reason WSU has lost traditional students is related to the loss of the football program. WSU is an urban university and will always have a large number of non traditional students and will serve to be a valuable resource for those students. My father was one of those students and WSU afforded him the opportunity to complete his degree and provide a better living for himself and family. I was a semi traditional student in that I worked part time and went to school at WSU full time. I did attend football and basketball games and had a great time at those events. Later in life I took my kids to football games and those times were and remain special. Perkins is not the one that made the decision to discontinue football but was done at the behest of warren armstrong. Could more have been done to save the program...sure. Money is and always will be the driving force for any change at any University. Is WSU attractive to other conferences? NO. Would a football program that was mediocre make WSU more attractive? NO. It takes committment by the supporters of this endeavor and so far there has been little to none. I would like to see a five or ten year plan by the athletic department for the future of WSU athletics. I would like it to include a panel to make a proposal to bring back football and propose a plan as to how that can be accomplished along with a new stadium proposal. Make the propsal and let it progress on its merits or fail due to lack of money or interest.

I can only speak for myself but I doubt if I would have even considered going to WSU if they hadn't had football back in 1976.

A lot of that probably has to do with me growing up in Nebraska, where football is definitely a lot more important that it is in Kansas, but I am sure there are others who just don't feel that you can get the full college experience without football.
:wsu_posters: