Coach Turgeon

[another shocker]

Turg got us to Marshall and to where we are today. I will always respect him for that.

yes, indeed. turgeon got a lucky break when he was hired by wichita state.

[Shockm]

Who on this board thinks WSU will never be good again after GGG leaves? Or would never be good again after Randy left?

I'm sure you're a fine person, but your statement here shows either a physical immaturity or an emotional one and for sure a lack of wisdom.

My advice is to never take anything for granted. I've seen lots of good times as a Shocker fan. I grew up on Stallworth, Bowman, Ernie Moore, Kelly Pete, Jamie Thompson, Warren and many other great basketball players during a golden age of Shocker basketball in the 60's. But after 1966 (2nd place in a great MVC league), my only memory of a Shocker MVC Championship was in 1975. We had other big wins, for example, we defeated a Marquette team (who went on to win the NCAA Championship that year) in the late 70's under Cheese Johnson but if we were lucky enough to be good, we went to the NIT, and if we are honest, rarely were we very much above 500. Then we had several great teams in the early 1980's under Gene Smithson (only won one MVC Championship during that era). We had some great players, and we were good in the late 1980's but we weren't a Championship team very often. Most of the time, if we had a good team, we went to the NIT. From 1990, we didn't smell 500 very often, and then when Turgeon came, we went to the NIT several times, and had some good times with good teams. Those were good years following our failures in the decade of 1990.

Now, admittedly, Marshall has brought us to another level and in the last 10 years, going to the NIT has been a let down. But if you take the totality of my Shocker memories, the NCAA entry teams have been a rare.

Now, back to my advice. Enjoy the good times we are in, but never take them for granted. They won't always last and Shocker success won't last either. I and you may never see another great Shocker team because our lives are not guaranteed and Shocker success isn't guaranteed either.

[another shocker]

I'm sure you're a fine person, but your statement here shows either a physical immaturity or an emotional one and for sure a lack of wisdom.

My advice is to never take anything for granted. I've seen lots of good times as a Shocker fan. I grew up on Stallworth, Bowman, Ernie Moore, Kelly Pete, Jamie Thompson, Warren and many other great basketball players during a golden age of Shocker basketball in the 60's. But after 1966 (2nd place in a great MVC league), my only memory of a Shocker MVC Championship was in 1975. We had other big wins, for example, we defeated a Marquette team (who went on to win the NCAA Championship that year) in the late 70's under Cheese Johnson but if we were lucky enough to be good, we went to the NIT, and if we are honest, rarely were we very much above 500. Then we had several great teams in the early 1980's under Gene Smithson (only won one MVC Championship during that era). We had some great players, and we were good in the late 1980's but we weren't a Championship team very often. Most of the time, if we had a good team, we went to the NIT. From 1990, we didn't smell 500 very often, and then when Turgeon came, we went to the NIT several times, and had some good times with good teams. Those were good years following our failures in the decade of 1990.

Now, admittedly, Marshall has brought us to another level and in the last 10 years, going to the NIT has been a let down. But if you take the totality of my Shocker memories, the NCAA entry teams have been a rare.

Now, back to my advice. Enjoy the good times we are in, but never take them for granted. They won't always last and Shocker success won't last either. I and you may never see another great Shocker team because our lives are not guaranteed and Shocker success isn't guaranteed either.

whew.. what a load of shite.

[ShockTalk]

I'm sure you're a fine person, but your statement here shows either a physical immaturity or an emotional one and for sure a lack of wisdom.

My advice is to never take anything for granted. I've seen lots of good times as a Shocker fan. I grew up on Stallworth, Bowman, Ernie Moore, Kelly Pete, Jamie Thompson, Warren and many other great basketball players during a golden age of Shocker basketball in the 60's. But after 1966 (2nd place in a great MVC league), my only memory of a Shocker MVC Championship was in 1975. We had other big wins, for example, we defeated a Marquette team (who went on to win the NCAA Championship that year) in the late 70's under Cheese Johnson but if we were lucky enough to be good, we went to the NIT, and if we are honest, rarely were we very much above 500. Then we had several great teams in the early 1980's under Gene Smithson (only won one MVC Championship during that era). We had some great players, and we were good in the late 1980's but we weren't a Championship team very often. Most of the time, if we had a good team, we went to the NIT. From 1990, we didn't smell 500 very often, and then when Turgeon came, we went to the NIT several times, and had some good times with good teams. Those were good years following our failures in the decade of 1990.

Now, admittedly, Marshall has brought us to another level and in the last 10 years, going to the NIT has been a let down. But if you take the totality of my Shocker memories, the NCAA entry teams have been a rare.

Now, back to my advice. Enjoy the good times we are in, but never take them for granted. They won't always last and Shocker success won't last either. I and you may never see another great Shocker team because our lives are not guaranteed and Shocker success isn't guaranteed either.

You have an interesting very of "greatness" i.e. MVC Championship. In the Golden Years, yes, the Valley was very tough and finishing in the top half of the Valley of Death was successful, but even Ralph Miller had only 1 NCAA and 2 NITs. However, the Valley wasn't bad after that either. Even Harry Miller had a 1st place (and NCAA) and a 3rd place. Until his last year, Smithson never finished lower than 3rd place, finished 2nd the year we won the "Valley Championship", had two 1st place regular seasons, 2 NITs, and 2 NCAA with an E8. Folger continued that (with mostly Gene's players) to have 3rd (with Valley Championship) and two 2nd places with an NIT and 2 NCAAs. After that, the bottom fell out primarily due to a poor hire, a questionable hire, and a must hire (with Randy) that none turned out well. It's amazing what good hires yielded after that.

We're not a KU, UNC, Duke, and so forth. We could not always get the elite of ADs, coaches, and thus, players. We're surrounded by B8/B12, SEC, B10, and Pac 12 teams out in Wichita, KS.

Yes, we are fortunate, but we have done damn well, too. We have a great fan base and a great basketball history, IMHO.

[ShockingButTrue]

I'm sure you're a fine person, but your statement here shows either a physical immaturity or an emotional one and for sure a lack of wisdom.

My advice is to never take anything for granted. I've seen lots of good times as a Shocker fan. I grew up on Stallworth, Bowman, Ernie Moore, Kelly Pete, Jamie Thompson, Warren and many other great basketball players during a golden age of Shocker basketball in the 60's. But after 1966 (2nd place in a great MVC league), my only memory of a Shocker MVC Championship was in 1975. We had other big wins, for example, we defeated a Marquette team (who went on to win the NCAA Championship that year) in the late 70's under Cheese Johnson but if we were lucky enough to be good, we went to the NIT, and if we are honest, rarely were we very much above 500. Then we had several great teams in the early 1980's under Gene Smithson (only won one MVC Championship during that era). We had some great players, and we were good in the late 1980's but we weren't a Championship team very often. Most of the time, if we had a good team, we went to the NIT. From 1990, we didn't smell 500 very often, and then when Turgeon came, we went to the NIT several times, and had some good times with good teams. Those were good years following our failures in the decade of 1990.

Now, admittedly, Marshall has brought us to another level and in the last 10 years, going to the NIT has been a let down. But if you take the totality of my Shocker memories, the NCAA entry teams have been a rare.

Now, back to my advice. Enjoy the good times we are in, but never take them for granted. They won't always last and Shocker success won't last either. I and you may never see another great Shocker team because our lives are not guaranteed and Shocker success isn't guaranteed either.

Physical immaturity? Lack of wisdom? You've seen Shocker teams go to final 4's before and after the Chicken right? Put all-americans on the court likewise? The Chicken achieved none of these.

No need to go to condescending lengths just because you're happy with NIT appearances. With that tone I believe it too. I'm not, never was, and didn't like It when the Chicken was doing it, ok? You consider NIT's par. Got it.

I hope the next time we have some type correspondence, if it occurs, and that will be up to you, that it would contain at least a little educational value,. I'll chalk this one up to you trying to be the ShockerNet white knight, here to defend helpless Chickens. I get it.

Au revoir big boy...

[Shockm]

You have an interesting very of "greatness" i.e. MVC Championship. In the Golden Years, yes, the Valley was very tough and finishing in the top half of the Valley of Death was successful, but even Ralph Miller had only 1 NCAA and 2 NITs. However, the Valley wasn't bad after that either. Even Harry Miller had a 1st place (and NCAA) and a 3rd place. Until his last year, Smithson never finished lower than 3rd place, finished 2nd the year we won the "Valley Championship", had two 1st place regular seasons, 2 NITs, and 2 NCAA with an E8. Folger continued that (with mostly Gene's players) to have 3rd (with Valley Championship) and two 2nd places with an NIT and 2 NCAAs. After that, the bottom fell out primarily due to a poor hire, a questionable hire, and a must hire (with Randy) that none turned out well. It's amazing what good hires yielded after that.

We're not a KU, UNC, Duke, and so forth. We could not always get the elite of ADs, coaches, and thus, players. We're surrounded by B8/B12, SEC, B10, and Pac 12 teams out in Wichita, KS.

Yes, we are fortunate, but we have done damn well, too. We have a great fan base and a great basketball history, IMHO.

I don't think you and disagree very much. We won a lot under Ralph and we were a national name for a good number of years under his leadership. Gary Thompson thrived (F4 and 2nd MVC finish) for two years with Ralph's kids. Louisville, Cincy, and Memphis all left the Valley during the late 60's and early 70's. The Thompson years is when I began attending Shocker games and had season tickets.

The place we disagreed most was that I don't see the Harry Miller era as being as successful as you do. Harry was at WSU for 10-11 years and won a 1st place (that team was a good team but I think we were somewhere around 18-9, in a weakened Valley), and you are right about another 3rd place finish. That means that for 8-9 years, we were probably a 500 team in a weaker MVC than in the 60's and early 70's. We were definitely a very competitive team during this period of time.

Smithson and Fogler had mostly successful teams but rarely Championships. We did go to the NCAA and were Top 10 successful for 3-4 years under Smithson. We went to the NIT several years during that time and the poster that I responded to said that the NIT was disappointing. We do have a great fan base that has been from 8K on the low end to 11.5 before the Fire Marshall said that we couldn't sell the standing room only tickets.

Even during our pathetic years of the 90's, we had a fan base of 6-7 K. I had season tickets during that time too. That's pretty good.

My main point to the poster I responded to was that Turgeon led us to several years of NIT's and I was thankful for the "winning ways" returning to the Roundhouse. He said that the NIT was not a nice reward and I disagreed. I have loved the Marshall years and it would be a great reward to go to the NCAA, but if we qualify for the NIT, I will be grateful again. One thing I know is that we will continue to be good, but I won't take "winning" for granted because I remember the bad years of the 90's and some prior to that.

[another shocker]

I don't think you and disagree very much. We won a lot under Ralph and we were a national name for a good number of years under his leadership. Gary Thompson thrived (F4 and 2nd MVC finish) for two years with Ralph's kids. Louisville, Cincy, and Memphis all left the Valley during the late 60's and early 70's. The Thompson years is when I began attending Shocker games and had season tickets.

The place we disagreed most was that I don't see the Harry Miller era as being as successful as you do. Harry was at WSU for 10-11 years and won a 1st place (that team was a good team but I think we were somewhere around 18-9, in a weakened Valley), and you are right about another 3rd place finish. That means that for 8-9 years, we were probably a 500 team in a weaker MVC than in the 60's and early 70's. We were definitely a very competitive team during this period of time.

Smithson and Fogler had mostly successful teams but rarely Championships. We did go to the NCAA and were Top 10 successful for 3-4 years under Smithson. We went to the NIT several years during that time and the poster that I responded to said that the NIT was disappointing. We do have a great fan base that has been from 8K on the low end to 11.5 before the Fire Marshall said that we couldn't sell the standing room only tickets.

Even during our pathetic years of the 90's, we had a fan base of 6-7 K. I had season tickets during that time too. That's pretty good.

My main point to the poster I responded to was that Turgeon led us to several years of NIT's and I was thankful for the "winning ways" returning to the Roundhouse. He said that the NIT was not a nice reward and I disagreed. I have loved the Marshall years and it would be a great reward to go to the NCAA, but if we qualify for the NIT, I will be grateful again. One thing I know is that we will continue to be good, but I won't take "winning" for granted because I remember the bad years of the 90's and some prior to that.

have you forgot that gene johnson/wichita (state) pioneered the full court press? a formula leading to multiple national championships for ucla/louisville (denny crum was a ucla assistant coach under wooden, of course) and olympic gold for the usa?

turgeon got a huge break when he was hired by wichita state. and still arguably underachieved. see: '07, at the least

[ShockerPrez]

Wichita State will be good after GM, as long as they don't have a moron as AD who hires Cohen. IIRC, there were lots of great coaches who would have jumped at taking the WSU job when Fogler left.

The same will be true when GM leaves. And if GM sticks around another 10 years or so, then he'll have a larger coaching tree to pick from and also some former players in coaching ranks to look at.

[ShockTalk]

I don't think you and disagree very much. We won a lot under Ralph and we were a national name for a good number of years under his leadership. Gary Thompson thrived (F4 and 2nd MVC finish) for two years with Ralph's kids. Louisville, Cincy, and Memphis all left the Valley during the late 60's and early 70's. The Thompson years is when I began attending Shocker games and had season tickets.

The place we disagreed most was that I don't see the Harry Miller era as being as successful as you do. Harry was at WSU for 10-11 years and won a 1st place (that team was a good team but I think we were somewhere around 18-9, in a weakened Valley), and you are right about another 3rd place finish. That means that for 8-9 years, we were probably a 500 team in a weaker MVC than in the 60's and early 70's. We were definitely a very competitive team during this period of time.

Smithson and Fogler had mostly successful teams but rarely Championships. We did go to the NCAA and were Top 10 successful for 3-4 years under Smithson. We went to the NIT several years during that time and the poster that I responded to said that the NIT was disappointing. We do have a great fan base that has been from 8K on the low end to 11.5 before the Fire Marshall said that we couldn't sell the standing room only tickets.

Even during our pathetic years of the 90's, we had a fan base of 6-7 K. I had season tickets during that time too. That's pretty good.

My main point to the poster I responded to was that Turgeon led us to several years of NIT's and I was thankful for the "winning ways" returning to the Roundhouse. He said that the NIT was not a nice reward and I disagreed. I have loved the Marshall years and it would be a great reward to go to the NCAA, but if we qualify for the NIT, I will be grateful again. One thing I know is that we will continue to be good, but I won't take "winning" for granted because I remember the bad years of the 90's and some prior to that.

I don't think we're that far apart either, except for a few of areas (important areas).

1) During the Valley of Death, the conference was an elite conference (compare to a P5). However, after that time the conference was still a solid/competitive conference and not finishing 1st or winning the conference tourney didn't mean a team was not a quality team. In other words, I think you put a little too much stock in what you call our "Golden Years" and not enough stock after that. In Ralph Miller's 13 years, he finished 1st once, 2nd twice, and 3rd twice, 2 NITs with no wins and 1 NCAA. Yet, you use championships as your ruler of success.

2) Many of the teams that replaced those Golden Years teams were still quality basketball teams. I feel to little credit is being given to those Valley teams of the 70s, 80s, and 90's. So, not winning a conference tournament title didn't mean you weren't a solid team. For me, it wasn't until 2000-2010 (more so 2006-2010), Valley teams that had previously been solid clubs, Bradley, Illinois St, Southern Illinois, and even UNI saw a fall in national competitiveness. Money, or a lack there of, played a big part in that and most likely, will not allow those teams to come back to the level they once were. That lead to Creighton, then WSU leaving.

3) Unlike the problems current Valley teams are hamstrung with, WSU's biggest problem to success had more to do from an administration stand point, IMO. Gary Thompson was probably around 2 too many years. Those 2 years took a lot of luster off what had been built before. It may a seemed like Harry Miller was around 10-11 or 8-9 years (you said both ranges), but he was only here 7. I'm definitely not a Harry Miller fan, however, he never finished worse than 5th in conference and had a 1st and 3rd with an NCAA appearance. So while he wasn't very successful, his record wasn't the pits either. Obviously, the other faux pas was hiring Cohen. We should have gone after a proven head coach. After the Cohen years, the luster was again tainted.

[Shockm]

Wichita State will be good after GM, as long as they don't have a moron as AD who hires Cohen. IIRC, there were lots of great coaches who would have jumped at taking the WSU job when Fogler left.

The same will be true when GM leaves. And if GM sticks around another 10 years or so, then he'll have a larger coaching tree to pick from and also some former players in coaching ranks to look at.

Gene Johnson was an innovator and basketball mind who changed how basketball is played. He was only here for 5 short years in the late 20s. He was hardly a game changer for the program but he changed basketball forever.

I hope you are right and HCGM continues to put out head coaches from the program. But while he is here and afterward, NCAA tourney and If not that fortunate, NIT appearances will continue to be appreciated because they show we are still winning. I won’t ever take winning for granted.

[ShockingButTrue]

Gene Johnson was an innovator and basketball mind who changed how basketball is played. He was only here for 5 short years in the late 20s. He was hardly a game changer for the program but he changed basketball forever.

I hope you are right and HCGM continues to put out head coaches from the program. But while he is here and afterward, NCAA tourney and If not that fortunate, NIT appearances will continue to be appreciated because they show we are still winning. I won’t ever take winning for granted.

Did you ever know that Chicken fan who liked it when all the teams in Kansas were good because it was good for the state, except of course, when WSU was the best team tin the state, then they kind of gave you the standard "yeah, but...? That's what you sound like.

Or, ever had the pleasure of knowing "that" Chicken fan that someone would dare have the nerve do say "yeah, WSU has good tradition too?" Do you remember the indignant reaction that that would engender from said Chicken? Sorta like your post directly above this one concerning G. Johnson.

Remember how disappointing it was X's junior year when they had to settle for the NIT, against Michigan with A. Joubert, Roy Tarpley, R. Relford, and Tim McCormack? Were you happy about that? Oh, yeah, you didn't mention the Shocker squad that lost to the National runner-up Wolverine team. Was ku better than that team?

Do you think WSU has good basketball tradition? Do you like it when the Shockers kick the stuffins' out of the Chickens, and are the best team in the state, which over time would probably be more times that you would care to admit? I have no doubt they'll be better again too. Do you doubt that? Don't lie.

Was turgeion your favorite player way back when, before you finally started going to the games when Thompson was the coach?

[proshox]

I'm sure you're a fine person, but your statement here shows either a physical immaturity or an emotional one and for sure a lack of wisdom.

My advice is to never take anything for granted. I've seen lots of good times as a Shocker fan. I grew up on Stallworth, Bowman, Ernie Moore, Kelly Pete, Jamie Thompson, Warren and many other great basketball players during a golden age of Shocker basketball in the 60's. But after 1966 (2nd place in a great MVC league), my only memory of a Shocker MVC Championship was in 1975. We had other big wins, for example, we defeated a Marquette team (who went on to win the NCAA Championship that year) in the late 70's under Cheese Johnson but if we were lucky enough to be good, we went to the NIT, and if we are honest, rarely were we very much above 500. Then we had several great teams in the early 1980's under Gene Smithson (only won one MVC Championship during that era). We had some great players, and we were good in the late 1980's but we weren't a Championship team very often. Most of the time, if we had a good team, we went to the NIT. From 1990, we didn't smell 500 very often, and then when Turgeon came, we went to the NIT several times, and had some good times with good teams. Those were good years following our failures in the decade of 1990.

Now, admittedly, Marshall has brought us to another level and in the last 10 years, going to the NIT has been a let down. But if you take the totality of my Shocker memories, the NCAA entry teams have been a rare.

Now, back to my advice. Enjoy the good times we are in, but never take them for granted. They won't always last and Shocker success won't last either. I and you may never see another great Shocker team because our lives are not guaranteed and Shocker success isn't guaranteed either.

Most kids coming out of high school didn’t realize WSU was D1 the day Turg showed up. Is he a hall of fame coach? No. Is he the perfect guy at the perfect time to build WSU into a sustainable powerhouse? Yes.

I was super excited to hire GGG - that doesn’t come close to happening without Mark. Be thankful Beggs, Jim and Mark were here together.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

Most kids coming out of high school didn’t realize WSU was D1 the day Turg showed up. Is he a hall of fame coach? No. Is he the perfect guy at the perfect time to build WSU into a sustainable powerhouse? Yes.

I was super excited to hire GGG - that doesn’t come close to happening without Mark. Be thankful Beggs, Jim and Mark were here together.

Sustainable powerhouse is questionable. That didn’t happen until HCGM took the helm. Relevant again might be better to describe turgeons time here.

[ShockBand]

MT put out the dumpster fire and got us back to respectability. He set the table, and offered us a gnosh in 2006. It is with HCGM that we have dined, and dined well.

[ShockingButTrue]

MT put out the dumpster fire and got us back to respectability. He set the table, and offered us a gnosh in 2006. It is with HCGM that we have dined, and dined well.

Yes.

GGG brought us back to heights we all knew we could reach again (attained before turg); we'd tasted it before. He knew what Wichita St. had to offer. He is a class act.