A couple of questions for the people who were around...

[shocker3]

We had touogh times in the late 60s until the mid 70s, when frankly, the MVC got much easier for a few years b/c Cincy, Louisville and Memphis left to form a new confernce. (Why, I don't know and that should be explored).

.

.

They left due to a fight in the MVC about how they divided the football money. The MVC got a lot of money back then from football TV broadcasts on ABC. Louisville in pariticular, as I recall was very upset over they way it was divided.
I have always found it ironic that the MVC powers left over football.

It was also the end of the ABC TV football contract that caused the Valley to drop football as a conference sport in 1985 (as well as the fact that the ncaa divided football into 1-a and 1-aa and 3 of the Valley shools were 1-a: WSU, Tulsa and New Mexico St.-the others were 1-AA).

[shockball]

I don't know why but I would guess its something the students started and it stuck. The singing of the alma mater is a fairly new tradition, which I think was suggested or started by Shirley Beggs. That tradition certainly doesn't date back to the early 70s (I'd say late 90s) and I have never heard, nor had the thought even entered my mind, frankly, that it had anything remotely to do with the plane crash.

I know they have been playing the alma mater since the mid-90's. At that time there was maybe three rows of students in the section and at most 10 rows for big games. I think yelling "Black" comes from one of the fraternities. I believe the Sig Eps and perhaps the Phi Delts were the ones that got the "black" started as well as the clapping motions that go with Dudley Doo Rite.

I was a student in the late 90's and the yelling "Black" during the alma mater did come from one of the fraternities. It was the SAE house that started that as well as the clapping motions to Dudley Doo Rite. The SAE's were always there in the first few rows back in the mid-late 90's even when the team was god awful.

Do you know why they chose to yell "black."

[Wheatshocker]

I can't remember all the Prez's. I think there was one between Armstrong and Beggs. Armstrong was there when athletics became an afterthought. I think there was one after Armstrong and there was a bit of recovery in athletics.

Gene Hughes. He paired with Bill Belknap to form an exciting duo in those -- yawn -- 1990s. Talk about a couple stiffs.

I'm so thankful we have Beggs.

[Wheatshocker]

That being said the Mike Cohen hire was done I believe because fast Eddie said that MC was his hand picked successor and if WSU had any chance of keeping the recruits that were coming as well as keeping the program clean then MC should be the man.

This most certainly is correct. And the recommendation by Fogler to hire Cohen, I believe, is the main reason some WSU fans are still sour at him, more so than using WSU as a stepping stone and leaving the cupboard bare.

[Wheatshocker]

The anti-KU martydom thing gets tiresome.

I don't know about the whole med-center thing, but it's definitely true KU didn't want WSU challenging them in athletics.

Some folks accuse Shocker fans of having "penis envy" or "little brother sydrome", but the fact is the school to the northeast -- who as already pointed out pretty well controlled the NCAA and the Board of Regents -- DID NOT like losing to WSU in hoops and football in a span of two years.

And they and K-State both were delighted when we dropped football, thus the state's talent only had to be split two ways instead of three.

Call me jealous, I guess, but that's how it was/is.

[GoShockers89]

I can not believe the Jim Valvano episode has not yet been discussed when lamenting our lack of luck in the 90s.

[jdmee]

That being said the Mike Cohen hire was done I believe because fast Eddie said that MC was his hand picked successor and if WSU had any chance of keeping the recruits that were coming as well as keeping the program clean then MC should be the man.

This most certainly is correct. And the recommendation by Fogler to hire Cohen, I believe, is the main reason some WSU fans are still sour at him, more so than using WSU as a stepping stone and leaving the cupboard bare.

I think the "leaving the cupboard bare" was more due to Cohen then the talent level of the players. Cohen could have coached a roster of McDonald All Americans into a "cupboard bare" type season.

I agree that the sourness for Fogler was due to the hiring of Cohen. After the fact I remember hearing a few people say that the recomendation of Cohen was Fogler's nice way to get rid of him.

[ShockTalk]

I am one of those who had a "sourness" for Folger. It had nothing to do with him leaving after three years (although I've often wondered how well, or lack there of, he would have done with his recruits).

1. Recommending his assistant, Cohen, said a lot to me. Folger was in the business of being a talent evaluator, of coaches as well as players. He should have know better, and maybe he did. An AD is probably not going to put his neck on the line by not hiring who this "successful" coach recommends (eventhough it was pretty obvious that it would not be a positive move).

2. I'm going to disagree with any of Folger's success being due to his recruiting. Eventhough his first two years appear to be a push,record wise, his 1st year, we lost in the 3rd round of the Valley tourney in OT and lost by 2 in the first round of the NCAAs. The second year, we were out of the Valley tourney in the 2nd round and lost by 21 in the first round of the NCAA. Both of these years were dominated by Smithson players. By the way, was Joe Griffin a Smithson or Folger recruit and what happened to him after his sophmore year?

Folger's 3rd year, our record was still about the same, but we lost in the first round of the Valley and went 1-1 in the NIT. During that year, four of the top six players were still Smithson's. View it as you will, I don't see that we were on any kind of an upswing during his 3 years. Good, entertaining basketball, but not improving each year.

March 11, 1987 NY Times: After 13 years of scouring the country for blue-chip players, Fogler has altered his approach to the game. His chief responsibility now is coaching.

''I don't read the scouting services anymore,'' he said. ''I used to know the name of every kid in the country. I don't have time now. I also made about 40 to 50 speeches to varius groups. The biggest difference is that I'm making the decisions now, not the suggestions.

I don't know how much credit I could give him for the players we did get while he was here. I believe our current coach is a little more hands on with the recruiting.

3. I also have my own personal reasons for how I viewed one of my favorite, all-time players, Sasha Radunovich was handled. This guy should have had the NBA in his future.

[pogo]

I will agree with everything Shock Talk has said and would like to add a couple of things.
1. I swear this happened but Mike Kennedy says it never did, and as much as I would defer to MK I still think I heard fast Eddie make the comment when asked about recruiting "he just could not recruit blue chip players to WSU." When I heard that he lost me as a fan from that point on.
2. Did not like the style of play....his philosophy was to pass the ball at least 4-5 times before even looking to shoot. If you took a shot out of that philosophy you joined him on the bench.
3. One of the all time Sasha stories was when he was in the low post and received the pass, his defender was behind him and Sasha put the ball between his knees and then faked a pass, when his defender went for the fake he retrieved the ball and made the lay in. He promptly joined fast Eddie on the bench.

[ShockTalk]

I will agree with everything Shock Talk has said and would like to add a couple of things.
1. I swear this happened but Mike Kennedy says it never did, and as much as I would defer to MK I still think I heard fast Eddie make the comment when asked about recruiting "he just could not recruit blue chip players to WSU." When I heard that he lost me as a fan from that point on.
2. Did not like the style of play....his philosophy was to pass the ball at least 4-5 times before even looking to shoot. If you took a shot out of that philosophy you joined him on the bench.
3. One of the all time Sasha stories was when he was in the low post and received the pass, his defender was behind him and Sasha put the ball between his knees and then faked a pass, when his defender went for the fake he retrieved the ball and made the lay in. He promptly joined fast Eddie on the bench.

And his great exhuberance of playing basketball was never quite as recognizable in Sasha afterwards.

[Rosewood]

I can not believe the Jim Valvano episode has not yet been discussed when lamenting our lack of luck in the 90s.

Tell me more

[Awesome Sauce Malone]

I can not believe the Jim Valvano episode has not yet been discussed when lamenting our lack of luck in the 90s.

Tell me more

If memory holds correct he was interested in the job, gave it a hard look and decided at the 11th hour he couldnt do it because of his cancer.

Then like two months later he passed.

As far as Fogler is concerned. I was 8 years old when he left. So I didnt know anything about anything but was upset when he left.

[pinstripers]

Fogler never wanted to be here, and that Sasha story is true.

[shockball]

I can not believe the Jim Valvano episode has not yet been discussed when lamenting our lack of luck in the 90s.

Tell me more

If memory holds correct he was interested in the job, gave it a hard look and decided at the 11th hour he couldnt do it because of his cancer.

Then like two months later he passed.

As far as Fogler is concerned. I was 8 years old when he left. So I didnt know anything about anything but was upset when he left.

I could be wrong, but I think Jim V. turned down a very substantial sum from us to go back to ESPN and he later found out he had cancer. He was interviewed in Wichita by our search committee.

I loved it when the frat house on 21st was under construction and somebody painted "Valvano" on a rickety mailbox outside.

[Good News]

I am one of those who had a "sourness" for Folger. It had nothing to do with him leaving after three years (although I've often wondered how well, or lack there of, he would have done with his recruits).

1. Recommending his assistant, Cohen, said a lot to me. Folger was in the business of being a talent evaluator, of coaches as well as players. He should have know better, and maybe he did. An AD is probably not going to put his neck on the line by not hiring who this "successful" coach recommends (eventhough it was pretty obvious that it would not be a positive move).

2. I'm going to disagree with any of Folger's success being due to his recruiting. Eventhough his first two years appear to be a push,record wise, his 1st year, we lost in the 3rd round of the Valley tourney in OT and lost by 2 in the first round of the NCAAs. The second year, we were out of the Valley tourney in the 2nd round and lost by 21 in the first round of the NCAA. Both of these years were dominated by Smithson players. By the way, was Joe Griffin a Smithson or Folger recruit and what happened to him after his sophmore year?

Folger's 3rd year, our record was still about the same, but we lost in the first round of the Valley and went 1-1 in the NIT. During that year, four of the top six players were still Smithson's. View it as you will, I don't see that we were on any kind of an upswing during his 3 years. Good, entertaining basketball, but not improving each year.

March 11, 1987 NY Times: After 13 years of scouring the country for blue-chip players, Fogler has altered his approach to the game. His chief responsibility now is coaching.

''I don't read the scouting services anymore,'' he said. ''I used to know the name of every kid in the country. I don't have time now. I also made about 40 to 50 speeches to varius groups. The biggest difference is that I'm making the decisions now, not the suggestions.

I don't know how much credit I could give him for the players we did get while he was here. I believe our current coach is a little more hands on with the recruiting.

3. I also have my own personal reasons for how I viewed one of my favorite, all-time players, Sasha Radunovich was handled. This guy should have had the NBA in his future.

I don't know what to make of all these posts about Eddie, but they sure as shinola make me want a cup of coffee.

If only Jean Smithson or Hairy Miller would have stuck around...