A couple of questions for the people who were around...

[GoShox117]

There is a ton of knowledge on this board, so I figured I'd use my resources and tap into it to answer a lot of the curious questions that are floating around my head :D

As a WSU graduate I should know one of these, but being born in 1984 limits my ability to understand the others.

1. When everyone at the arena yells black during the Alma Mater, I always figured that was because of the Black plane that crashed out of the two, black and gold. But I was reading an article, and have not been able to see the documentary, which said the Gold plane was the one that crashed. Maybe it was a faulty article, because the chant made the most sense for that. Why do we do it? lol

2. Why were sanctions placed on our team? Wasn't it in 1983 that we were... 25-3? but couldn't go to the tourney? What was their decision on that based on?

3. Since we were so amazing, which usually creates an influx of good recruits, why the downfall? I mean, was it the sanctions, or something else? I mean, Maryland won the freaking national championship in 2002, and w/ the same coach they haven't been near as good, but that conjures even more questions about them and adds to my confusion. So, to summarize, why the ensuing letdown years (not for Maryland, but us)?

Thank you all, sorry for the long post, but I'm really curious and know you have the answers!

[SB Shock]

Re: A couple of questions for the people who were around...

3. Since we were so amazing, which usually creates an influx of good recruits, why the downfall?

Here is my opinion.

1. The firing of Smithonson was the root cause of the downfall to the program.

2. 2nd was the hiring of Fogler. Fogler lived off of Smithson recruits and got out before his lack of recruiting caught up with him. Unfortunately he couldn't get to UNC before his inability to recruit would catch up with him.

3. Hiring of Cohen was the final nail in the coffin for the program.

[jcdshocker]

Re: A couple of questions for the people who were around...

There is a ton of knowledge on this board, so I figured I'd use my resources and tap into it to answer a lot of the curious questions that are floating around my head :D

As a WSU graduate I should know one of these, but being born in 1984 limits my ability to understand the others.

1. When everyone at the arena yells black during the Alma Mater, I always figured that was because of the Black plane that crashed out of the two, black and gold. But I was reading an article, and have not been able to see the documentary, which said the Gold plane was the one that crashed. Maybe it was a faulty article, because the chant made the most sense for that. Why do we do it? lol

2. Why were sanctions placed on our team? Wasn't it in 1983 that we were... 25-3? but couldn't go to the tourney? What was their decision on that based on?

3. Since we were so amazing, which usually creates an influx of good recruits, why the downfall? I mean, was it the sanctions, or something else? I mean, Maryland won the freaking national championship in 2002, and w/ the same coach they haven't been near as good, but that conjures even more questions about them and adds to my confusion. So, to summarize, why the ensuing letdown years (not for Maryland, but us)?

Thank you all, sorry for the long post, but I'm really curious and know you have the answers!

Well without going into a lot of details, we had some recruiting violations and unaccounted for payments to players under Coach Smithson and also a few were attributed to Coach Harry Miller. I believe it was after the 1982 season that we were hit with the probation. The probation would prohibit any post season for a few years (I think.) After the probation hit Cliff left for the NBA, Ozell Jones left the team, Dreiling transferred to KU. I think we also had some limitations on future scholarships and definitely we were limited on recruiting off campus. I can't remember the exact restrictions. Antoine stayed for his senior season and together with X and Aubrey put together one of the best regular seasons in WSU History.

[GoShox117]

Re: A couple of questions for the people who were around...

[quote="SB Shock"][quote="GoShox117"]

1. The firing of Smithonson was the root cause of the downfall to the program.

Well, that doesn't answer all of my questions, haha, but helps a lot. But, one answer, which is quoted above, leads me to the obvious next question: Why was he fired?

[Aargh]

I pretty much agree with #3 above. I might add that Lew Perkins - yes, the guy at KU now fired Smithson cause graduation rates were down, attendance was slipping and Gene closed down the Candle Club a few too many times a week, but he was still a great recruiter and coach.

I'll take a shot at #2.

The sanctions were unusually harsh because WSU was, at that time, the most penalized school in the NCAA. There were some minor issues and one significant issue during Smithson's years. Some serious issues, typically involving air fare from the coach before Smithson. Maybe numerous would be more accurate than "some".

The biggie during all of that was Ozell Jones HS figured his transcript by a different method than they figured students not seeking athletic scholarships. That's illegal and a clear NCAA violation. WSU pleaded innocence and that they were unaware of the fact that his HS basically forged his transcript so he would qualify for an athletic scholarship. The NCAA ruled WSU should have known.

The NCAA put 2 investigators on WSU for a year and a half. Back in those days, no university could get through an investigation like that without serious infractions being found.

So why did WSU get singled out for the thorough investigation? The "big boys" didn't like WSU crashing their party and the "big boys" pretty much controlled the NCAA (some things never change). The NCAA was going to investigate until they found something.

There were suspicions of who was pulling the strings on the NCAA investigation. The facts that NCAA headquarters were in Kansas City and the majority of employees at the NCAA were KU graduates was noticed. It was also noticed that KU DID NOT LIKE being the #2 basketball school in the state and getting beat by WSU in the NCAAs.

[Aargh]

...unaccounted for payments to players under Coach Smithson...

That is not true. Smithson never got caught paying anybody anything. Antoine Carr's mom bought a new house with an insurance settlement during that time and WSU haters have painted Smithson as a cheater and spread many, many lies about what happened during his administration.

I might point out that Dave Skinner and Ron Heller were employees at Bank IV at that time and neither had a banking background. That makes you go "Hmmm" and might explain why there was never any evidence of WSU providing anything outside the rules to athletes during Smithson's time here.

[19SHOCKER76]

Don't have a clue as to the why for "black".

To help understand the fall, you need to better understand the rise. At that time the City League was loaded with quality players, like Darnel Valentine, Antonnie (sp) Carr, Greg Dreiling, Aubrey Sherrod, Ricky Ross and some I have probably missed. I don't know if we had a time before or since with so much talent in the City League. These guys helped to attract other quality players, like Cliff Livingston and Xavier McDaniel. This was instrumental to the rise of the program in the early 80's.

[WuDrWu]

Re: A couple of questions for the people who were around...

3. Since we were so amazing, which usually creates an influx of good recruits, why the downfall?

Here is my opinion.

1. The firing of Smithonson was the root cause of the downfall to the program.

2. 2nd was the hiring of Fogler. Fogler lived off of Smithson recruits and got out before his lack of recruiting caught up with him. Unfortunately he couldn't get to UNC before his inability to recruit would catch up with him.

3. Hiring of Cohen was the final nail in the coffin for the program.

Everyone is going to have a differing opinion. I have to offer a rebuttal to this one.

1. The program was on tenuous ground already......we had no respect in the national light....the recruiting was way down, and we were not running a clean program.

2. Eddie whitewashed the program and immediately went to 3 straight post seasons. He certainly was not the best recruiter of all time, but he did sign 2 of the top 30 or so players in the history of the program in John Cooper and Paul Guffrovich. Eddie was never a match for Wichita, which always caused problems. Also, there was little to no quality leadership in the AD's office for YEARS which hastened the downfall once it really started.

3. No doubt that idiot Cohen burned us down. What a galactically stupid move that was.....They could have hired me in my early 20s and the program would have been in FAR better shape..... I was and still am a better choice for head coach. I can only imagine how many people he has bankrupted while in the investment business.

[WuDrWu]

That is not true. Smithson never got caught paying anybody anything. Antoine Carr's mom bought a new house with an insurance settlement during that time and WSU haters have painted Smithson as a cheater and spread many, many lies about what happened during his administration.

I might point out that Dave Skinner and Ron Heller were employees at Bank IV at that time and neither had a banking background. That makes you go "Hmmm" and might explain why there was never any evidence of WSU providing anything outside the rules to athletes during Smithson's time here.

Both outstanding points that rarely get any run.

As usual, Aargh knows of what he speaks.

I would like to add that attempts to inform those that should want to know of flagrant violations by a certain school to the northeast fell on not surprisingly deaf ears during the same time period.

[Kung Wu]

Great questions and a very interesting thread.

Still want to know what the "black" is all about.

[jcdshocker]

...unaccounted for payments to players under Coach Smithson...

That is not true. Smithson never got caught paying anybody anything. Antoine Carr's mom bought a new house with an insurance settlement during that time and WSU haters have painted Smithson as a cheater and spread many, many lies about what happened during his administration.

I might point out that Dave Skinner and Ron Heller were employees at Bank IV at that time and neither had a banking background. That makes you go "Hmmm" and might explain why there was never any evidence of WSU providing anything outside the rules to athletes during Smithson's time here.

I did not say it was Coach Smithson that paid the players. However, this was an issue during the investigation and there probably is more to the story than you or I both know. There were unaccounted for and unearned payments to players. Lew Perkins was brought in to clean up the mess in the basketball program and also killed the football program too. Declining attendance, a drinking problem and some lack of talent caused Smithson to get fired. Eddie was a short term fix and was here to run a clean system for a few years. Mike Cohen, well what can I say.

[vancedave56]

I don't think it was lack of talent - we still had very good players; maybe not like Anotine and Cliff - but who recruited the Praylows, Grayer, H. Carr, Radunavich, etc and a few others that Eddie won with?

[kcshocker11]

John Cooper getting his leg broke didnt help either!

[GoShockers89]

John Cooper getting his leg broke didnt help either!

That was the moment you got the feeling we might be screwed for a while. Granted, nobody thought "for a while" meant ten years, and "screwed" meant drowning in the abyss of an utterly crappy MVC throughout the 90's.

Ugh. Informative thread, but highly depressing to reminisce on the downfall.

[hoopsnut]

As I remember it:

Smithson did have great teams and players, but towards the end of his tenure, he was giving the University a bad reputation and Lew Perkins had enough. He hired Eddie Fogler to clean things up.

The town never warmed to Fogler because he was Smithson's replacement. Fogler did take the team to two NCAA's and one NIT during his three years at WSU. He had the opportunity to climb the coaching ranks and left for Vanderbilt, also not a popular move with the WSU fans. Interestingly enough, I met Vanderbilt fans during the WSU/Vandy NIT game that had nothing but good things to say about Fogler and he left to coach against them at South Carolina. People have often criticised his recruiting, but he recruited players to play his style of ball and they were students as well as athletes.

The hiring of Mike Cohen was a monumental error by the athletic department. However big this error was, the even bigger error was sticking with him as long as they did.

From that point on WSU has struggled to climb out of the hole they were in. It was a very long time from Fogler's two NCAA appearances until Turgeon got us back. It is funny how people dislike Eddie and Mark for moving on to other opportunities. It seems like Shocker fans want to love the coaches we fire (Smithson x2) and hate the coaches who leave on their own.