A couple of questions for the people who were around...

[ABC]

The "big boys" didn't cause our fall.

And Smithson should have been fired. Lew Perkins did the right thing. Let's just say the Smithson was behaving in a manner not fitting a major college basketball program.

Fogler didn't cause the fall. Geez I get so damn tired of that excuse.

We had touogh times in the late 60s until the mid 70s, when frankly, the MVC got much easier for a few years b/c Cincy, Louisville and Memphis left to form a new confernce. (Why, I don't know and that should be explored).

In my opinion the three single problems were the hiring of Cohen, Thompson and Smithson. I will give those hiring Thompson a pass b/c he certainly had the persona and resume to succeed and nearly every school has a mis-step.

To me the hiring of Cohen and Smithson are tough to forgive. Neither one had any freaking business being a low Div 1 coach, let alone a coach at a place like WSU.

[Aargh]

I pretty much put the whole thing on Armstrong, the University Prez when all this happened.

I can't remember all the Prez's. I think there was one between Armstrong and Beggs. Armstrong was there when athletics became an afterthought. I think there was one after Armstrong and there was a bit of recovery in athletics. When Beggs got here, he revamped the athletic department completely and supported athletics.

At schools where athletics is not a huge money maker and a huge attraction for incoming students, it doesn't take much for athletics to slide into mediocrity. An anti-sports Prez, or a weak AD can both seriously damage an athletic department and it takes forever to build it back up once it's torn down.

I think MSU is having this problem. There's problewms with the Prez micro-managing the athletic department and the AD can't act on his own. That's how they trashed the firing of Hinson and dragged it out a year or so past when it had to happen based on Hinson's contract situation. MSU may have gotten a fortunate BB hire, but that doesn't undo the poisonous atmosphere that seems to be building there.

[shockball]

Something no one has mentioned is we had several athletic directors that were lucky to have one more job before they started taking social security or were just very overmatched. IMHO. Tom Shupe and Bill Bellnap come to mind. Then in the late 90's along came Beggs, then Schaus.

In February of '81 the KC Star ran an article "The Best Team Money Can Buy." Many coaches were quoted blasting Gene Smithson. I think that was the impetus/excuse (KU orchestration?) for the investigation.

[WSUShokker]

Well ...I was on an aircraft carrier off the coast of Libya and in the Persian Gulf during most of the 80's....Most if not all my questions though were answered when I returned to the Ta in 1990. Really makes you wonder where we would of been and would of gone had it all not transpired....interesting discussion though

[Metalkatz]

Re: A couple of questions for the people who were around...

There is a ton of knowledge on this board, so I figured I'd use my resources and tap into it to answer a lot of the curious questions that are floating around my head :D

As a WSU graduate I should know one of these, but being born in 1984 limits my ability to understand the others.

1. When everyone at the arena yells black during the Alma Mater, I always figured that was because of the Black plane that crashed out of the two, black and gold. But I was reading an article, and have not been able to see the documentary, which said the Gold plane was the one that crashed. Maybe it was a faulty article, because the chant made the most sense for that. Why do we do it? lol

2. Why were sanctions placed on our team? Wasn't it in 1983 that we were... 25-3? but couldn't go to the tourney? What was their decision on that based on?

3. Since we were so amazing, which usually creates an influx of good recruits, why the downfall? I mean, was it the sanctions, or something else? I mean, Maryland won the freaking national championship in 2002, and w/ the same coach they haven't been near as good, but that conjures even more questions about them and adds to my confusion. So, to summarize, why the ensuing letdown years (not for Maryland, but us)?

Thank you all, sorry for the long post, but I'm really curious and know you have the answers!

Well without going into a lot of details, we had some recruiting violations and unaccounted for payments to players under Coach Smithson and also a few were attributed to Coach Harry Miller. I believe it was after the 1982 season that we were hit with the probation. The probation would prohibit any post season for a few years (I think.) After the probation hit Cliff left for the NBA, Ozell Jones left the team, Dreiling transferred to KU. I think we also had some limitations on future scholarships and definitely we were limited on recruiting off campus. I can't remember the exact restrictions. Antoine stayed for his senior season and together with X and Aubrey put together one of the best regular seasons in WSU History.

Really makes you think what could have been following the 1982 NCAA run and beat down of KU. I would have liked to think that was one of the few years in our history that we are/were capable of winning a national championship especially if Cliff not left for the NBA. Of course what do I know? I was barely a child then, I'm only 27
The probation really gets under my skin knowing we had the potential to hang a few more NCAA banners but would never get that chance.

[Shocka Lutha King]

While we are at it. Does anybody know why we have a KU Medical in wichita? Didn't it start out as a Wichita State facility?

Thanks

[Aargh]

After WSU developed the Medical program and made sure it did not duplicate anything KU was doing, KU appealed to the Regents that no other school in the State could have a medical facility. That was successful and KU was awarded Wichita's medical facility. Grounds, building, faculty, everything.

At that point in time WSU had no representation on the Regents. It was mainly made up of KU graduates. The trend of refusing to allow WSU to offer expanded academic programs continued until probably some time in the '90's, when the Regents and the Legislature finally appeared to accept the fact that WSU was actually a state-funded and state-governed school.

[ABC]

I do not think that is correct and WSU did not have a medical school.

It is not unusual for a State medical school to have a facility located in a large city, and have more than one large-city campus.

The KU campus in Wichita is for the last two years of medical school for primary care disciplines (surgery, pediatrics, internal, etc.)

WSU's health profession college still has many unique programs including the state's only Physician Assistants prgram.

The anti-KU martydom thing gets tiresome.

[WstateU]

I do not think that is correct and WSU did not have a medical school.

It is not unusual for a State medical school to have a facility located in a large city, and have more than one large-city campus.

The KU campus in Wichita is for the last two years of medical school for primary care disciplines (surgery, pediatrics, internal, etc.)

WSU's health profession college still has many unique programs including the state's only Physician Assistants prgram.

The anti-KU martydom thing gets tiresome.

Agree... it's also laughable.

[shocklight]

Ok, as I remember it.......WSU wanted to add a medical school. With Wesley and St. Francis so close, and the doctors we have here, it made sense for WSU to have a program. KU didn't want it to happen and lobbied hard against it. The Sedgwick County Hostpital (todays KU Med in Wichita) had closed and was sitting empty. The board of Regents granted KU to have a school of med here and it was placed in the current location. Thus stopping WSU from getting a Med school.

I'm sure some might have more accurate facts. But, this is how it was percieved by the Wichita community at the time.

Also, Darnel Valentines mother got a huge addition to her house by a KU alum. I know this for a fact. I was there and did some work on it. When Antonie ended up going to WSU, KU was not happy at all. When Gregg Dreiling went to WSU, KU was not happy at all (in fact, they caused one of their alums to quit supporting them, because he didn't deliver Gregg). My point is, WSU was not the only one doing the cheating at the time. The pot was calling the kettle black. This however doesn't excuse the things that happened at WSU. There are many more stories that went on back in those days. I for one think of all that in the past and I like how things are now (and under MT). Good clean recruiting and winning the right way, with students. 23-8 is a very nice year, can HCGM better that next year? There's not much room for error.

[vbird53]

Can anybody confirm what Aargh is suggesting? ABC throws it out, but obviously at some point, KU made an advance to offer programs in Wichita. Surely, that ruffled some WSU feathers.

Also, I'd like to know more about what happened post-Lew. Who hired Tom Shupe, and where did he come from? How did he make the decision to hire Cohen?

There must have been some pressure to continue Fogler's regime, but if Wichitans were so put off by Fogler, why did that carry so much weight?

[pogo]

Most of what is being put down here is urban legend and it makes for some interesting reading. Remember every urban legend has a nugget of truth to it in some form. That being said the Mike Cohen hire was done I believe because fast Eddie said that MC was his hand picked successor and if WSU had any chance of keeping the recruits that were coming as well as keeping the program clean then MC should be the man. As far as all the rest I believe there are some basic truths in most of the statements but you need to take it with at least several grains of salt.

[BioShock]

I too have always wondered why everyone yells black during the alma mater. anyone know??

[wsu789]

I don't know why but I would guess its something the students started and it stuck. The singing of the alma mater is a fairly new tradition, which I think was suggested or started by Shirley Beggs. That tradition certainly doesn't date back to the early 70s (I'd say late 90s) and I have never heard, nor had the thought even entered my mind, frankly, that it had anything remotely to do with the plane crash.

[19SHOCKER76]

I don't believe that AD Ted Bredehoft has been mentioned in this thread.

I remember that he "resurrected" Shocker baseball with a very good hire of an Oklahoma coach.

Didn't he also initiate the forced SASO membership in order to purchase basketball tickets? If not, he certainly increased the amount, which ticked off a lot of season ticket holders.

Didn't the whole ncaa probation thing end up costing him his job as well?