Marshall vs Martin

[MTXE]

I believe that success in D1 basketball comes down to two main things, recruiting and motivation. X's and O's, practice, nutrition can be learned out of a book, but it takes a truly dynamic individual to get what is essentially a grown boy to think like a warrior and actually believe. What coach Martin was able to do in convincing his players that they still had a chance when they were down 25, was one of the most impressive things I have seen in a long while. Those players would have followed him off a cliff.

I was going to tell you to analyze the two Bradley games of 2007-2008 and the 24 point defeat at the hand of a 7th place Missouri State ball club, but I think to continue this type of discussion serves no purpose at this current juncture. We are in year three and are off to a very good start. I hope the toughness (mental and physical) that has been glaringly absent in the past continues to develop in our team and we have tremendous success this year and for many years to come under coach Marshall.

Or, a few game situations (make a couple baskets, create a turnover, get a stop) caused the momentum to shift and the players to believe in themselves.

Not saying Martin didn't have a little something to do with it, just that we really don't know because we weren't in the team huddle and aren't in the minds of his players.

Can the same be said for Marshall after comeback against CU in the MVC tourney last year? (down 22 in the 2nd half, eventually taking a 1-pt lead that should have stood as the final score)

You're correct, I don't have a lot of facts on Martin or what went on in that huddle. I can tell you this, if they would have pulled off the comeback it would have broken some records. Imagine if you were a player on that team staring at that deficit. What would it take for you to believe you could come back? That would take a lot of self-determination from a young man.

The comeback against CU last year was impressive as well. There is no doubt in my mind that Marshall is becoming a very effective motivator at Wichita State. He is a super-salesman and that is why he is such a great recruiter!

Some of the things our team has suffered from over the last few years are difficult to pin on any one person or group. However, I am firmly convinced that Gregg Marshall's success at Wichita State begins and ends with his recruiting of players that are physically (not mentally) superior to the Valley. I don't see and haven't seen him squeeze much blood out of a turnip. He is no Dana in that respect. HCGM will simply overwhelm teams with size and physical ability and a dash of solid coaching. That means a lot of fun for Wichita State fans.

[ShockTalk]

I believe that success in D1 basketball comes down to two main things, recruiting and motivation. X's and O's, practice, nutrition can be learned out of a book, but it takes a truly dynamic individual to get what is essentially a grown boy to think like a warrior and actually believe. What coach Martin was able to do in convincing his players that they still had a chance when they were down 25, was one of the most impressive things I have seen in a long while. Those players would have followed him off a cliff.

I was going to tell you to analyze the two Bradley games of 2007-2008 and the 24 point defeat at the hand of a 7th place Missouri State ball club, but I think to continue this type of discussion serves no purpose at this current juncture. We are in year three and are off to a very good start. I hope the toughness (mental and physical) that has been glaringly absent in the past continues to develop in our team and we have tremendous success this year and for many years to come under coach Marshall.

Or, a few game situations (make a couple baskets, create a turnover, get a stop) caused the momentum to shift and the players to believe in themselves.

Not saying Martin didn't have a little something to do with it, just that we really don't know because we weren't in the team huddle and aren't in the minds of his players.

Can the same be said for Marshall after comeback against CU in the MVC tourney last year? (down 22 in the 2nd half, eventually taking a 1-pt lead that should have stood as the final score)

You're correct, I don't have a lot of facts on Martin or what went on in that huddle. I can tell you this, if they would have pulled off the comeback it would have broken some records. Imagine if you were a player on that team staring at that deficit. What would it take for you to believe you could come back? That would take a lot of self-determination from a young man.

The comeback against CU last year was impressive as well. There is no doubt in my mind that Marshall is becoming a very effective motivator at Wichita State. He is a super-salesman and that is why he is such a great recruiter!

Some of the things our team has suffered from over the last few years are difficult to pin on any one person or group. However, I am firmly convinced that Gregg Marshall's success at Wichita State begins and ends with his recruiting of players that are physically (not mentally) superior to the Valley. I don't see and haven't seen him squeeze much blood out of a turnip. He is no Dana in that respect. HCGM will simply overwhelm teams with size and physical ability and a dash of solid coaching. That means a lot of fun for Wichita State fans.

There is some real nice backhanded compliments to the coach and players in there. Nice job again.

[ShockTalk]

In my opinion it is a blessing to be born with the ability to find peace in the social current of the majority. Unfortunately I have never been endowed with such a gift.

Oh woe is you. :cry:

So I will discontinue my commenting in this thread beyond a few final statements.

So much for that. :roll:

I believe that success in D1 basketball comes down to two main things, recruiting and motivation. X's and O's, practice, nutrition can be learned out of a book.

All things should be so simple.

I was going to tell you to analyze the two Bradley games of 2007-2008 and the 24 point defeat at the hand of a 7th place Missouri State ball club, but I think to continue this type of discussion serves no purpose at this current juncture.

Too bad you didn't think of that before you posted it. :lol: By the way, 07-08 - new coachs, new systems, mostly former coaches players, little to no depth.

[moshock]

moshock - I wanted to thank you earlier for your local input, but I got side-tracked a couple of times in this thread.

I also wanted to respond to your comment regarding why Marshall came to WSU. Not only the money, but the fan base added to that. You were right in pointing out the lack of attendence to the Bears/Shocker game was due to weather as MSU drew 10,000 for the Illinois St game. However, MSU also only drew 7,200 with Auburn and 7,400 with Tulsa. Both arenas are similar in size, but with the great year MSU is having, is averaging 6,600 in attendence compared to WSU 10,300 with a less attractive schedule.

I believe the kind of fan base is important to coaches for a number of reasons, at least those in non-BCS environments.

I was kidding when I said 1.2 million reasons. While I think the $$$ make WSU a very attractive job, the potential to be a national contender, the fan base, and the facilities (thanks CK) will make it possible for us to always have a top notch coach. I think MT was telling it straight when he said that WSU was a Major program in a Mid Major league.

MSU is my definition of a mid major program. Won't spend the $$$ it takes to get a proven winner (no offense to CM) and would be content making the big dance once in a while. There is no comparison to WSU in fan base, expectations, potential, or budget.

When CM was hired, there was a lot of talk about Bobby Knight coming here....what a joke. BK gets paid more to give a pep talk than MSU pays their coach.

I always enjoy posting here. It's nice to be able to contribute once in a while. I live on this site during basketball and baseball season. The info I gain from this site keeps me close to the program.

THANK YOU ALL YOU SHOCKERNETTERS. :good:

[WSUwatcher]

First year

Outstanding post by ShockTalk.

Don't forget, too, that a few key things during the season over which Marshall had no control -- some key missed free throws (I don't recall seeing Gregg at the line all year), a couple of shots that were in and out, and of course the injury to WSU's most indispensable player, all combined to make a season end up 11-20 that could just as easily have been 15-16 or so.

Of course, in one sense that makes last year's improvement seem less impressive, but I think it's pretty obvious what's going on now. Anyone who spends too much time focusing on Marshall's first two years (a) isn't very smart or thoughtful about building a basketball program, (b) has too much time on his hands, and (c) is far too enamored of hearing himself talk or reading his own prose.

Gee, that almost sounds like a police lineup description of Cold. Hmmm....

[SFL]

Re: First year

Outstanding post by ShockTalk.

Don't forget, too, that a few key things during the season over which Marshall had no control -- some key missed free throws (I don't recall seeing Gregg at the line all year), a couple of shots that were in and out, and of course the injury to WSU's most indispensable player, all combined to make a season end up 11-20 that could just as easily have been 15-16 or so.

Of course, in one sense that makes last year's improvement seem less impressive, but I think it's pretty obvious what's going on now. Anyone who spends too much time focusing on Marshall's first two years (a) isn't very smart or thoughtful about building a basketball program, (b) has too much time on his hands, and (c) is far too enamored of hearing himself talk or reading his own prose.

Gee, that almost sounds like a police lineup description of Cold. Hmmm....

[kcshocker11]

Well if MSU is going to fade they didnt show it this weekend, Martin is doing a great job and we better be ready when they come to Wichita for revenge!

[shocklight]

I don't think Barry Hinson should have been fired, but he was. Coach Martin has done (and will continue to do) a very nice job. He has some talent on that team, but the inside game is weak. Also, Weems has turned into a very good player. We missed that one (so did a lot of other coaches). I give Weems the most credit for the MSU comeback on us. Ricks played some very good presure defense on our point guards in the second half. Mallett also made some great shots.

Now I am biased, but we have a much deeper team, and over the course of a season I think we will prove to be the better team (that is no way a smack down on MSU either).

To some it up, we have the better Coaches and players. But, I have a lot of new respect for Martin, Weems and Company.

[wufan]

I'm pretty sure that MT offered Weems as well as that other guy that got booted for theft as a freshman. One was great one was awful. We got neither.

[SubGod22]

If memory serves we never offered Weems and may or may not have offered Austin. Most didn't seem to think Weems would progress anything like he has. Austin may be in jail by now I have no idea

[wu_shizzle]

If memory serves we never offered Weems and may or may not have offered Austin. Most didn't seem to think Weems would progress anything like he has. Austin may be in jail by now I have no idea

This is how I remember it as well.

Weems was seen as a Tweener, too small for the post and not skilled enough to play SF. He's obviously proved a lot of people wrong.

I think MT might have offered Austin, but the micro-sized PG with character issues should have been always seen as a backup option.

[ShockTalk]

If memory serves we never offered Weems and may or may not have offered Austin. Most didn't seem to think Weems would progress anything like he has.

Another fine example of the benefits of certain players red-shirting. Way to go Kyle!

:good:

[RoyalShock]

If memory serves we never offered Weems and may or may not have offered Austin. Most didn't seem to think Weems would progress anything like he has.

Another fine example of the benefits of certain players red-shirting. Way to go Kyle!

:good:

:yes: