Marshall vs Martin

[ShockTalk]

First, let me say, this is not a knock on HCGM. I think he's done a great job for the Shox and hope he stays around a long time.

I found some of the comparisons of HCGM and Cuonzo Martin interesting and thought I'd put them up for discussion.

Background: HCGM 9 years as head coach with many conference championships and NCAA appearances. Martin had no head coaching experience and became the head associate coach at Purdue one year prior to going to Missouri St.

Team year prior to coming: Shocks were 17-14 in 06-07. Bears 17-16 in 07-08.

1st year under new coach: Shocks were 11-20/4-14 in 9th place. Team had several seniors, but depth not experienced, recruits didn't come on board, some housekeeping was done. Bears were 11-20/3-15 4 games in last. Team had several seniors, depth more experienced than Shocks, don't know about all recruits but some did come on board, some housekeeping was done.

Current year: Both teams have a single senior on the roster with both a mix of JUCO and HS players recruited by the coachs. Going in to the first meeting of the two teams, both had almost exactly the same overall and conference records.

Facilities and fan support: Both had nice, new facilities to recruit to. Shocks were know for sell-outs of 10,500 with a recent history of success in the post-season. Bear fans amounted to 7,100 in an 11,000 seat new arena for last nights game. Nuf said about that. Recent history of limited success in the post-season.

While I'm extremely please with what HCGM has accomplished and where we are at this time, I'm also amazed with what Coach Martin has done in one year going from doormat to contender and receiving some national attention.

I think both teams are very forunate to have their current coachs, I know we are. It's just mind-boggling what Martin has done in one year with mostly new players.

[Aargh]

Martin has done an outstanding job. I want to wait for this season to be done before giving Martin his grade.

When I look at what MSU puts on the floor, they appear to be over-achieving. If they can do it for the entire season, that will remove any doubts. If MSU faades sometime during the season, maybe Martin got a little extra out of them early and that didn't leave anything in the tank for the long haul.

If MSU continues at the pace they're going right now, we have to take our hats off and give a bow to Martin. He's done a pretty impressive rebuilding job in very short order.

[pogo]

MSU started fast but now that Valley play has started its going to be a much harder game. The Valley (most conferences) scouts each other and knows their tendencies if not from the get go for sure the next time they meet. I really feel msu will be a middle of the pack type team this year. Not to diminish what CM has done in a short time but I really feel good about the talent that we have compared to theirs.

[ShockTalk]

I agree with both of you. I was cautious about saying what I thought about us going into that game. I really liked our chances and wasn't surprised by us building a big lead, just the size of the big lead. I was much more surprised about our lack of putting the game away and also Martin being able to keep his team's head in the game and coming back like they did. I think both teams should learn a lot from that game. I hope we do at least.

I, too, still think the Bears will finish in the middle of the conference before it's all over. Nevertheless, hats off to BearNation, their coach and team.

[shockball]

Nice job on the comparisons. The article on Martin that was in the KC Star a couple of weeks ago let us know where he came from and how far he has come. Just your typical East St. Louis childhood and having cancer in his mid twenties. His accomplishments seem that much greater when this is factored in.

Coach Marshall really likes this guy.

[tropicalshox]

Martin has obviously done a good job with what he has. I expect them to be in the top 4 this year which is remarkable. But I wouldn't trade Marshall for anybody.

When it comes to recruiting I'm not impressed with what Maritn has brought in. He's going to have to step it up to be at the top.

[MTXE]

Re: Marshall vs Martin

First, let me say, this is not a knock on HCGM. I think he's done a great job for the Shox and hope he stays around a long time.

I found some of the comparisons of HCGM and Cuonzo Martin interesting and thought I'd put them up for discussion.

Background: HCGM 9 years as head coach with many conference championships and NCAA appearances. Martin had no head coaching experience and became the head associate coach at Purdue one year prior to going to Missouri St.

Team year prior to coming: Shocks were 17-14 in 06-07. Bears 17-16 in 07-08.

1st year under new coach: Shocks were 11-20/4-14 in 9th place. Team had several seniors, but depth not experienced, recruits didn't come on board, some housekeeping was done. Bears were 11-20/3-15 4 games in last. Team had several seniors, depth more experienced than Shocks, don't know about all recruits but some did come on board, some housekeeping was done.

Current year: Both teams have a single senior on the roster with both a mix of JUCO and HS players recruited by the coachs. Going in to the first meeting of the two teams, both had almost exactly the same overall and conference records.

Facilities and fan support: Both had nice, new facilities to recruit to. Shocks were know for sell-outs of 10,500 with a recent history of success in the post-season. Bear fans amounted to 7,100 in an 11,000 seat new arena for last nights game. Nuf said about that. Recent history of limited success in the post-season.

While I'm extremely please with what HCGM has accomplished and where we are at this time, I'm also amazed with what Coach Martin has done in one year going from doormat to contender and receiving some national attention.

I think both teams are very forunate to have their current coachs, I know we are. It's just mind-boggling what Martin has done in one year with mostly new players.

You have to be very careful making insinuations about HCGM and his tenure at Wichita State around here if you want to keep your rear-end intact. :)

There is no question that HCGM's slow start at WSU was surprising. While this season is far from over, Gregg looks to be finally delivering on all the hype he brought over with him from the Big South.

When coach Marshall was hired, people around the community (including Shockernet) were predicting an instant turnaround - certainly not the kind of abyss we fell into the first year. And then when we started off the second year in conference play like a team completely out of control, the wheels looked to be coming off.

We are now in year three and off to a great start (I'm not counting the teams we played with RPI's over 300). Many on this forum place 100% of the blame for our programs multi-year struggles on Mark Turgeon. That isn't even close to correct. Certainly HCGM faced some recruiting challenges when he signed up but nobody predicted the disaster that was the first season (and part of the second).

We had just beaten LSU and UAB and were sitting 9-4. Everybody was feeling good. Plenty of talent, plenty of able-bodied players. Then we lose a close one against Drake and Matt gets hurt. Illinois State comes to town, and with Gal running the show, we lose a nail-biter by 3 points. Then we go on the road and have a huge second half (51 points) to beat Bradley by 7. We looked to not be missing a step with Matt out. Then came a 30 point loss at Missouri State and the rest of the story - as the say - was history.

Those first two years were tough times, but seem to be behind us now. Gregg needs to take this program to some nice places this year to fully erase all the embarrassing moments of his first two years (UMKC uggh).

[pogo]

Sorry....can't agree with you at all. No way you can lay the first season at GM's feet.

[tropicalshox]

Your first paragraph is absolutely correct.

[ShockTalk]

Re: Marshall vs Martin

First, let me say, this is not a knock on HCGM. I think he's done a great job for the Shox and hope he stays around a long time.

I found some of the comparisons of HCGM and Cuonzo Martin interesting and thought I'd put them up for discussion.

Background: HCGM 9 years as head coach with many conference championships and NCAA appearances. Martin had no head coaching experience and became the head associate coach at Purdue one year prior to going to Missouri St.

Team year prior to coming: Shocks were 17-14 in 06-07. Bears 17-16 in 07-08.

1st year under new coach: Shocks were 11-20/4-14 in 9th place. Team had several seniors, but depth not experienced, recruits didn't come on board, some housekeeping was done. Bears were 11-20/3-15 4 games in last. Team had several seniors, depth more experienced than Shocks, don't know about all recruits but some did come on board, some housekeeping was done.

Current year: Both teams have a single senior on the roster with both a mix of JUCO and HS players recruited by the coachs. Going in to the first meeting of the two teams, both had almost exactly the same overall and conference records.

Facilities and fan support: Both had nice, new facilities to recruit to. Shocks were know for sell-outs of 10,500 with a recent history of success in the post-season. Bear fans amounted to 7,100 in an 11,000 seat new arena for last nights game. Nuf said about that. Recent history of limited success in the post-season.

While I'm extremely please with what HCGM has accomplished and where we are at this time, I'm also amazed with what Coach Martin has done in one year going from doormat to contender and receiving some national attention.

I think both teams are very forunate to have their current coachs, I know we are. It's just mind-boggling what Martin has done in one year with mostly new players.

You have to be very careful making insinuations about HCGM and his tenure at Wichita State around here if you want to keep your rear-end intact. :)

There is no question that HCGM's slow start at WSU was surprising. While this season is far from over, Gregg looks to be finally delivering on all the hype he brought over with him from the Big South.

When coach Marshall was hired, people around the community (including Shockernet) were predicting an instant turnaround - certainly not the kind of abyss we fell into the first year. And then when we started off the second year in conference play like a team completely out of control, the wheels looked to be coming off.

We are now in year three and off to a great start (I'm not counting the teams we played with RPI's over 300). Many on this forum place 100% of the blame for our programs multi-year struggles on Mark Turgeon. That isn't even close to correct. Certainly HCGM faced some recruiting challenges when he signed up but nobody predicted the disaster that was the first season (and part of the second).

We had just beaten LSU and UAB and were sitting 9-4. Everybody was feeling good. Plenty of talent, plenty of able-bodied players. Then we lose a close one against Drake and Matt gets hurt. Illinois State comes to town, and with Gal running the show, we lose a nail-biter by 3 points. Then we go on the road and have a huge second half (51 points) to beat Bradley by 7. We looked to not be missing a step with Matt out. Then came a 30 point loss at Missouri State and the rest of the story - as the say - was history.

Those first two years were tough times, but seem to be behind us now. Gregg needs to take this program to some nice places this year to fully erase all the embarrassing moments of his first two years (UMKC uggh).

While I'll disagree with a lot of what you said, respectively, this wasn't so much about HCGM as Martin. HCGM has been on a time table that I feel is very much in line with what I expected. It is the speed at which Martin turned around the Bears -- to this point. We'll see how he finishes the year and what happens in his 3rd year. I do wish him the best, except against the Shox.

[WuDrWu]

I think Coach Martin has done a nice job so far this season, certainly way above expectations.

However, it's not the first time a team picked near the bottom of the Valley has had a surprisingly good non conference schedule. And more than once that same team ends up laying an egg in conference.

I also believe Coach Martin did a poor job of coaching last season. Remember, MSU was above .500 the year before, had 5 seniors last year and added Weems (who I think Barry signed).

[capnkirk]

Did MSU hire Martin near the end of the recruiting period? Did multiple recruits not honor commitments? Did he lose several starters to graduation?

[WSUShokker]

How much do you factor in Woodberry's recruiting these kids. Ive heard that he has alot more to do with bringing kids in than alot of asst. coaches. Does Martin have the same kids without Steve being there? I think we would but Im not sure Martin would. Maybe Im wrong about that though

[wsushox1]

I totally agree with you about them being over achieving. When I saw what kind of players they had it just seemed they couldn't match up with us. Our bench is SO deep when it is playing well, most teams can't match up. MSU is truly a year away in my opinion. Bring in better athletes, and look out!

[moshock]

I think that I have a pretty good view of this topic. I am a Shocker down to the bone but I live in the Springfield area.

First, it's true that there were only 7100 at the game last nite. I think it had more to do with 6-8" of existing snow and 6-8" of forecast snow with 40mph winds. It was a rough nite all the way around in SGF. I was actually pretty impressed by the crowd. Don't get me wrong....it's no Koch Arena crowd. Even when MSU was making their comeback and the crowd at it's loudest it didn't compare to Levitt/Koch.

I was asked by a Bear fan last nite what drew HCGM to WSU. I jokingly said there were 1.2 million reasons. The Bearfan had never been to Koch or Wichita and didn't know about all of the advantages that WSU offers over Winthrop. I also explained that WSU was in a stronger conference and had received at large bids and Winthop (no offense) never will. HCGM is very highly respected in SGF.

I ask him if he thought MSU would ever pay CM a six figure salary. He said it was possible if he could fill up JQH but didn't think it was probable. Most around here think of MSU as a stepping stone while WSU hopes to keep a successful coach. I hope that came out right. I'm trying to say that the WSU job has way more potential for success than MSU does IMHO. We are also willing to pay for an experiened and proven Head Coach. MSU is willing to hire on potential and hope to keep them long enough to have a couple of years of success. That's why I surprised by Barry's firing.

CM seems to be a really good selection for MSU. IMHO, there are two main reasons he was selected. He was in their budget ($300K or so) and he was a star\assistant in the Big 10 like Steve Alford was.

I really like CM but I think he might have a tough time recruiting here. He is really hitting his home turf of St Louis. Other than that he is only recruiting in a few local states. It's pretty much the same states that Barry recruited from. I don't know if it's budget related or what but it is very similar.

HCGM seems to be recruiting from all over...Vegas, Texas, Florida, Africa, Oxford..and getting some incredible athletes. As far as recruiting goes, I would give GM an A- (only because there is always room for improvement) and CM a C. Weems & Creekmore are Barry recruits IIRC. Mallett is a player but other than that I'm not real impressed. For those of you at the game last nite, there was a huge visible difference in length and atheletism.

I am a huge HCGM fan and really like HCCM. I think they will both be very good. Given my situation, I would like to see the Shocks win the conference and MSU runner-up every year.

BUT :wsu_posters: