Marshall vs Martin

[moshock]

Did MSU hire Martin near the end of the recruiting period? Did multiple recruits not honor commitments? Did he lose several starters to graduation?

Barry was having a hard time recruiting with a noose around his neck the last two years he was here. They lost one recruit, a guard from Tulsa IIRC. Barry was fired right after his MVC tourney loss.

CM had 5 seniors last year including the Laurie brothers. One of them was a 6th year sr IIRC. Cooks was also a pretty good player.

The local High School class of 2003 was pretty loaded. Barry recruited alot of local talent. That was the bulk of his success.

:wsu_posters:

[moshock]

How much do you factor in Woodberry's recruiting these kids. Ive heard that he has alot more to do with bringing kids in than alot of asst. coaches. Does Martin have the same kids without Steve being there? I think we would but Im not sure Martin would. Maybe Im wrong about that though

Woodberry was also a Barry assistant. Alot of locals wanted him to get the HC job. He will be a very good head coach someday.

:wsu_posters:

[Ricardo del Rio]

I think that I have a pretty good view of this topic. I am a Shocker down to the bone but I live in the Springfield area.

First, it's true that there were only 7100 at the game last nite. I think it had more to do with 6-8" of existing snow and 6-8" of forecast snow with 40mph winds. It was a rough nite all the way around in SGF. I was actually pretty impressed by the crowd. Don't get me wrong....it's no Koch Arena crowd. Even when MSU was making their comeback and the crowd at it's loudest it didn't compare to Levitt/Koch.

I was asked by a Bear fan last nite what drew HCGM to WSU. I jokingly said there were 1.2 million reasons. The Bearfan had never been to Koch or Wichita and didn't know about all of the advantages that WSU offers over Winthrop. I also explained that WSU was in a stronger conference and had received at large bids and Winthop (no offense) never will. HCGM is very highly respected in SGF.

I ask him if he thought MSU would ever pay CM a six figure salary. He said it was possible if he could fill up JQH but didn't think it was probable. Most around here think of MSU as a stepping stone while WSU hopes to keep a successful coach. I hope that came out right. I'm trying to say that the WSU job has way more potential for success than MSU does IMHO. We are also willing to pay for an experiened and proven Head Coach. MSU is willing to hire on potential and hope to keep them long enough to have a couple of years of success. That's why I surprised by Barry's firing.

CM seems to be a really good selection for MSU. IMHO, there are two main reasons he was selected. He was in their budget ($300K or so) and he was a star\assistant in the Big 10 like Steve Alford was.

I really like CM but I think he might have a tough time recruiting here. He is really hitting his home turf of St Louis. Other than that he is only recruiting in a few local states. It's pretty much the same states that Barry recruited from. I don't know if it's budget related or what but it is very similar.

HCGM seems to be recruiting from all over...Vegas, Texas, Florida, Africa, Oxford..and getting some incredible athletes. As far as recruiting goes, I would give GM an A- (only because there is always room for improvement) and CM a C. Weems & Creekmore are Barry recruits IIRC. Mallett is a player but other than that I'm not real impressed. For those of you at the game last nite, there was a huge visible difference in length and atheletism.

I am a huge HCGM fan and really like HCCM. I think they will both be very good. Given my situation, I would like to see the Shocks win the conference and MSU runner-up every year.

BUT :wsu_posters:

A thoughtful post.

[GoShockers89]

Barry would not only still be there, he would be toast of the town if the NCAA had not deliberately screwed the Bears twice on at-large bids. I enjoy seeing the Bears squirm in baseball, but those two seasons really pissed me off as an MVC hoops fan. An RPI of 24 isn't good enough? Only when you don't play in the ACC.

[MTXE]

Sorry....can't agree with you at all. No way you can lay the first season at GM's feet.

I would never totally blame the first or the first have of the second year on HCGM. I would not lay it completely on Turgeon either. Gregg had to deal with some roster issues and players that did not fit his system, but it wasn't like he had a bunch of walkons either.

Ramon, P.J., Durley, Thomasson, Braeuer, Hatch, Ellis, Gal, and a few others. Half the Valley would consider their cupboard full with a roster that included a couple starters from a Sweet 16 team.

I simply expected coach Marshall to come into Wichita and exceed expectations with whatever he had to work with. My expectations weren't exceeded during the first two years. Things are looking good for some upside surprises in year three though.

I have a feeling that soon all the bad memories will be forgotten. :)

[ShockTalk]

Sorry....can't agree with you at all. No way you can lay the first season at GM's feet.

I would never totally blame the first or the first have of the second year on HCGM. I would not lay it completely on Turgeon either. Gregg had to deal with some roster issues and players that did not fit his system, but it wasn't like he had a bunch of walkons either.

Ramon, P.J., Durley, Thomasson, Braeuer, Hatch, Ellis, Gal, and a few others. Half the Valley would consider their cupboard full with a roster that included a couple starters from a Sweet 16 team.

I simply expected coach Marshall to come into Wichita and exceed expectations with whatever he had to work with. My expectations weren't exceeded during the first two years. Things are looking good for some upside surprises in year three though.

I have a feeling that soon all the bad memories will be forgotten. :)

This wasn't the intent of this thread, but I can't let this go unchallenged.

Let's quickly review just what happened from 05-06 to 06-07 to 07-08.

MT's team of 06-07 had 6 of the top 7 players from the Sweet 16 team (minus Miller) yet had a 17-14 record and finished the season 8-14 with an 8-10 conference record. Not much to brag about. From this 14 man roster, Marshall got only 6 players, 2 from the Sweet 16 team (PJ and Matt), Thomasson, Mekel, Preadom, and walk-on Harris and none of the MT HS recruits.

To this, HCGM re-recruited Ramon, added Mantas, had a self-proclaimed lazy red-shirt freshman (Durley), a rusty Hatch from a couple years on mission work, and a freshman who would have been better off red-shirting but we couldn't afford to Ellis. They started the season 7-5 before Matt went down (who was averaging 35 mpg) and went 2-9 until he came back. They finished 2-6 with 3 OT loses along with walk-on Harris starting the last 4 games - so maybe he was left with a fair amount of "walk-on" talent. Tell me again how many current Valley teams would trade their roster for this 11 man team? You wouldn't totally blame Marshall -- I wouldn't blame him at all!

The problem here is that You SIMPLY expected Marshall to EXCEED Your expectations with whatever he had to work with.

[JaminShock]

Sorry....can't agree with you at all. No way you can lay the first season at GM's feet.

I would never totally blame the first or the first have of the second year on HCGM. I would not lay it completely on Turgeon either. Gregg had to deal with some roster issues and players that did not fit his system, but it wasn't like he had a bunch of walkons either.

Ramon, P.J., Durley, Thomasson, Braeuer, Hatch, Ellis, Gal, and a few others. Half the Valley would consider their cupboard full with a roster that included a couple starters from a Sweet 16 team.

I simply expected coach Marshall to come into Wichita and exceed expectations with whatever he had to work with. My expectations weren't exceeded during the first two years. Things are looking good for some upside surprises in year three though.

I have a feeling that soon all the bad memories will be forgotten. :)

This wasn't the intent of this thread, but I can't let this go unchallenged.

Let's quickly review just what happened from 05-06 to 06-07 to 07-08.

MT's team of 06-07 had 6 of the top 7 players from the Sweet 16 team (minus Miller) yet had a 17-14 record and finished the season 8-14 with an 8-10 conference record. Not much to brag about. From this 14 man roster, Marshall got only 6 players, 2 from the Sweet 16 team (PJ and Matt), Thomasson, Mekel, Preadom, and walk-on Harris and none of the MT HS recruits.

To this, HCGM re-recruited Ramon, added Mantas, had a self-proclaimed lazy red-shirt freshman (Durley), a rusty Hatch from a couple years on mission work, and a freshman who would have been better off red-shirting but we couldn't afford to Ellis. They started the season 7-5 before Matt went down (who was averaging 35 mpg) and went 2-9 until he came back. They finished 2-6 with 3 OT loses along with walk-on Harris starting the last 4 games - so maybe he was left with a fair amount of "walk-on" talent. Tell me again how many current Valley teams would trade their roster for this 11 man team? You wouldn't totally blame Marshall -- I wouldn't blame him at all!

The problem here is that You SIMPLY expected Marshall to EXCEED Your expectations with whatever he had to work with.

:good:

[Ashockalypse]

Outstanding thread Shocktalk. Very well said. Unfortunately, with MTXE, you may as well be talking to the wall because he hears nothing that conflicts with his little preconceptions.

[ShockTalk]

moshock - I wanted to thank you earlier for your local input, but I got side-tracked a couple of times in this thread.

I also wanted to respond to your comment regarding why Marshall came to WSU. Not only the money, but the fan base added to that. You were right in pointing out the lack of attendence to the Bears/Shocker game was due to weather as MSU drew 10,000 for the Illinois St game. However, MSU also only drew 7,200 with Auburn and 7,400 with Tulsa. Both arenas are similar in size, but with the great year MSU is having, is averaging 6,600 in attendence compared to WSU 10,300 with a less attractive schedule.

I believe the kind of fan base is important to coaches for a number of reasons, at least those in non-BCS environments.

[WstateU]

Sorry....can't agree with you at all. No way you can lay the first season at GM's feet.

I would never totally blame the first or the first have of the second year on HCGM. I would not lay it completely on Turgeon either. Gregg had to deal with some roster issues and players that did not fit his system, but it wasn't like he had a bunch of walkons either.

Ramon, P.J., Durley, Thomasson, Braeuer, Hatch, Ellis, Gal, and a few others. Half the Valley would consider their cupboard full with a roster that included a couple starters from a Sweet 16 team.

I simply expected coach Marshall to come into Wichita and exceed expectations with whatever he had to work with. My expectations weren't exceeded during the first two years. Things are looking good for some upside surprises in year three though.

I have a feeling that soon all the bad memories will be forgotten. :)

This wasn't the intent of this thread, but I can't let this go unchallenged.

Let's quickly review just what happened from 05-06 to 06-07 to 07-08.

MT's team of 06-07 had 6 of the top 7 players from the Sweet 16 team (minus Miller) yet had a 17-14 record and finished the season 8-14 with an 8-10 conference record. Not much to brag about. From this 14 man roster, Marshall got only 6 players, 2 from the Sweet 16 team (PJ and Matt), Thomasson, Mekel, Preadom, and walk-on Harris and none of the MT HS recruits.

To this, HCGM re-recruited Ramon, added Mantas, had a self-proclaimed lazy red-shirt freshman (Durley), a rusty Hatch from a couple years on mission work, and a freshman who would have been better off red-shirting but we couldn't afford to Ellis. They started the season 7-5 before Matt went down (who was averaging 35 mpg) and went 2-9 until he came back. They finished 2-6 with 3 OT loses along with walk-on Harris starting the last 4 games - so maybe he was left with a fair amount of "walk-on" talent. Tell me again how many current Valley teams would trade their roster for this 11 man team? You wouldn't totally blame Marshall -- I wouldn't blame him at all!

The problem here is that You SIMPLY expected Marshall to EXCEED Your expectations with whatever he had to work with.

You nailed it like a split hog! :good: :good:

[MTXE]

Sorry....can't agree with you at all. No way you can lay the first season at GM's feet.

I would never totally blame the first or the first have of the second year on HCGM. I would not lay it completely on Turgeon either. Gregg had to deal with some roster issues and players that did not fit his system, but it wasn't like he had a bunch of walkons either.

Ramon, P.J., Durley, Thomasson, Braeuer, Hatch, Ellis, Gal, and a few others. Half the Valley would consider their cupboard full with a roster that included a couple starters from a Sweet 16 team.

I simply expected coach Marshall to come into Wichita and exceed expectations with whatever he had to work with. My expectations weren't exceeded during the first two years. Things are looking good for some upside surprises in year three though.

I have a feeling that soon all the bad memories will be forgotten. :)

This wasn't the intent of this thread, but I can't let this go unchallenged.

Let's quickly review just what happened from 05-06 to 06-07 to 07-08.

MT's team of 06-07 had 6 of the top 7 players from the Sweet 16 team (minus Miller) yet had a 17-14 record and finished the season 8-14 with an 8-10 conference record. Not much to brag about. From this 14 man roster, Marshall got only 6 players, 2 from the Sweet 16 team (PJ and Matt), Thomasson, Mekel, Preadom, and walk-on Harris and none of the MT HS recruits.

To this, HCGM re-recruited Ramon, added Mantas, had a self-proclaimed lazy red-shirt freshman (Durley), a rusty Hatch from a couple years on mission work, and a freshman who would have been better off red-shirting but we couldn't afford to Ellis. They started the season 7-5 before Matt went down (who was averaging 35 mpg) and went 2-9 until he came back. They finished 2-6 with 3 OT loses along with walk-on Harris starting the last 4 games - so maybe he was left with a fair amount of "walk-on" talent. Tell me again how many current Valley teams would trade their roster for this 11 man team? You wouldn't totally blame Marshall -- I wouldn't blame him at all!

The problem here is that You SIMPLY expected Marshall to EXCEED Your expectations with whatever he had to work with.

In my opinion it is a blessing to be born with the ability to find peace in the social current of the majority. Unfortunately I have never been endowed with such a gift. I don't intend to upset your apple cart so I will discontinue my commenting in this thread beyond a few final statements.

I believe that success in D1 basketball comes down to two main things, recruiting and motivation. X's and O's, practice, nutrition can be learned out of a book, but it takes a truly dynamic individual to get what is essentially a grown boy to think like a warrior and actually believe. What coach Martin was able to do in convincing his players that they still had a chance when they were down 25, was one of the most impressive things I have seen in a long while. Those players would have followed him off a cliff.

I was going to tell you to analyze the two Bradley games of 2007-2008 and the 24 point defeat at the hand of a 7th place Missouri State ball club, but I think to continue this type of discussion serves no purpose at this current juncture. We are in year three and are off to a very good start. I hope the toughness (mental and physical) that has been glaringly absent in the past continues to develop in our team and we have tremendous success this year and for many years to come under coach Marshall.

[ShockerGorilla]

Wasn't Cold an open critic of HCGM, too?

[Ksedg]

You guys have way too much time on your hands. :lol:

[RoyalShock]

I believe that success in D1 basketball comes down to two main things, recruiting and motivation. X's and O's, practice, nutrition can be learned out of a book, but it takes a truly dynamic individual to get what is essentially a grown boy to think like a warrior and actually believe. What coach Martin was able to do in convincing his players that they still had a chance when they were down 25, was one of the most impressive things I have seen in a long while. Those players would have followed him off a cliff.

I was going to tell you to analyze the two Bradley games of 2007-2008 and the 24 point defeat at the hand of a 7th place Missouri State ball club, but I think to continue this type of discussion serves no purpose at this current juncture. We are in year three and are off to a very good start. I hope the toughness (mental and physical) that has been glaringly absent in the past continues to develop in our team and we have tremendous success this year and for many years to come under coach Marshall.

Or, a few game situations (make a couple baskets, create a turnover, get a stop) caused the momentum to shift and the players to believe in themselves.

Not saying Martin didn't have a little something to do with it, just that we really don't know because we weren't in the team huddle and aren't in the minds of his players.

Can the same be said for Marshall after comeback against CU in the MVC tourney last year? (down 22 in the 2nd half, eventually taking a 1-pt lead that should have stood as the final score)

[150946shox]

Marshall Vs Martin

Martin got some nice press in the Omaha World-Harold.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100105/SPORTS/701059832

Sounds like he is highly respected by more coaches than Jacobson and Jankovich as well as HCGM.