The Screw in St. Lou (video evidence)

[DUShock]

A BUDDY OF MINE DID THE SAME THING ON THE VIDEO EXCEPT HE STOPPED IT WHEN THE CREIGHTON PLAYER FIRST TOUCHED THE BALL AND STOPPED THE CLOCK WHEN IT HIT ZERO. THE BALL CLEARLY HAD NOT LEFT THE PLAYER'S HAND IN TIME. IT HAPPENS SO FAST, YOU CAN'T SEE IT UNLESS YOU STOP THE VIDEO AT ZERO. THE THING I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS HOW ERIC SAXTON SAYS HE SAW THE VIDEO AND THE CLOCK HAD .4 OF A SECOND ON THE CLOCK WHEN THE BALL LEFT THE PLAYERS HAND. NO WAY! EITHER ERIC NEEDS GLASSES OR SOMETHING ELSE STRANGE IS GOING ON. IT'S OBVIOUSLY OVER NOW BUT THIS IS A DAMN SHAME. THE VALLEY'S REPUTATION JUST TOOK ANOTHER DIP IN CREDIBILTY - WAY TO GO DOUG!

Welcome to the board, but please remove the Caps Lock. It makes your posts really hard to read and in terms of internet decorum it's considered shouting.

Thanks!

Wraggs returns!

[jdmee]

If Hannah grabs the loose ball with 1.9 seconds - Game over.
If WSU does a better job of preventing Woodfox from ever receiving the inbounds - Game over.
If Murry guards Woodfox better after he received the ball - Game over.
If WSU doesn't screw around for the first 25 minutes of the game - Game over.
Woodfox made a great shot and CU won - Game over.
The tape conspiracy may make some feel good on here, but it's so close...
Besides, I'm not going to get into the issue of 00's, lights and horn.
WSU made a fantastic come back and deserves a lot of credit. But if they played as hard during the come back for the first 25 minutes, they win the game by 10 points. It's a 40 minute game - not 1.9 seconds. 8)

I agree with everything you say, however:

According to the NCAA basketball rule book, if the clock reads less than 0.3 seconds then the only thing you can do is a tip in.

We have Woodfox "tipping" the ball 4 times. Two dribbles, one shot and one fumble.

We have the floor "tipping the ball 2 times. This totals 6 "tips" or 1.8 seconds.

That leaves 0.1 seconds for the ball to travel from hand to floor 2 times and to move the ball from dribble position to shooting position. To me that doesn't sound possible.

We all know it is close, we all know they shouldn't of had that 1.9 seconds if we held onto the ball. We all know if we hit our shots in the first half it wouldn't have mattered and it all doesn't matter now nor did it matter 30 seconds after they called it. There is no nor was there any way the MVC was going to or ever will say the shot could have been late.

[Rosewood]

I don't know where else to put this but Dennis continues to impress with pure stupidity. He doesn't get why there is a controversy because the shot left Woodfox's hand with .5 seconds left.

No wonder some people think we are just whining.

Even people thinking that they can use their DVR to figure this out hurts my head.

I really wanted to call in and get my $.02 in but I can't. I can't be one of those people. Really, you people push me as far as I can go. The line must be drawn here. This far! No further!!

[Ramjet]

WOW!!! No NIT, too bad.

[vbird53]

If Hannah grabs the loose ball with 1.9 seconds - Game over.
If WSU does a better job of preventing Woodfox from ever receiving the inbounds - Game over.
If Murry guards Woodfox better after he received the ball - Game over.
If WSU doesn't screw around for the first 25 minutes of the game - Game over.
Woodfox made a great shot and CU won - Game over.
The tape conspiracy may make some feel good on here, but it's so close...
Besides, I'm not going to get into the issue of 00's, lights and horn.
WSU made a fantastic come back and deserves a lot of credit. But if they played as hard during the come back for the first 25 minutes, they win the game by 10 points. It's a 40 minute game - not 1.9 seconds. 8)

But those 1.9 seconds count, just like the rest of the 40 minutes. These arguments make no sense to me. Just face the facts: it was poor clock management, poor officiating, and a poor response by the conference. There is no need to stick up for those on the other side in this instance.

It was a screw job.

I thought I'd let it go over the weekend, but now that I've read through everything available, and listened to Coach Marshall, it is still making me mad.

There are too many fail-proof systems in place to let this happen at this level of basketball. As the Coach said, he's never seen such incompetent clock operation in his career as a coach. Last year, he was ejected from a game. He's got to have just about had it with this conference's operations. It is pathetic.

There are not many times that I would ever say this, because I want our league to shine, but I hope and pray we're a 1-bid league this year.

It's time for every thing this conference has known to be shaken up.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

Nice info from Elgin concerning clock

[WuDrWu]

I'd like to see a test on the clock. This hasn't been discussed yet....

Say the guy running the clock was right on. Say there is a second delay from the time he "starts" the clock until the clock itself starts moving.

If that's the case, then it would explain the other delays evident late in the game.

And if that's the case, then you cannot "add" time back when it was fumbled out of bounds. The clock would have "started" late and so it would have to be allowed to be "stopped" in due course.

Why didn't they fix the time at the end of regulation in the UNI ISU game?

I am not a conspiracy guy, I just don't think they want to admit their errors. I know it was close, we all do, but it was wrong.

That's why we are 17-15.

[ShockerFever]

WOW!!! No NIT, too bad.

Creighton fan.. :cry:... bragging about the NIT..

[ShockerFever]

If Hannah grabs the loose ball with 1.9 seconds - Game over.
If WSU does a better job of preventing Woodfox from ever receiving the inbounds - Game over.
If Murry guards Woodfox better after he received the ball - Game over.
If WSU doesn't screw around for the first 25 minutes of the game - Game over.
Woodfox made a great shot and CU won - Game over.
The tape conspiracy may make some feel good on here, but it's so close...
Besides, I'm not going to get into the issue of 00's, lights and horn.
WSU made a fantastic come back and deserves a lot of credit. But if they played as hard during the come back for the first 25 minutes, they win the game by 10 points. It's a 40 minute game - not 1.9 seconds. 8)

Well, I didn't see that coming.. :roll:

[im4wsu]

After reviewing the play 30 times, Elgin said the clock started on time given the relay from the referee's signal to the scorer's table.

To sum it all up concisely, there are NCAA rules that permit use of visual replayto adjust the clock to override the official's signals as long as there should be time remaining; but if time expires, then it is only the official's signal that matters, no matter how tardy or ineffective that signal may be or the ultimate effect on the time remaining.

Using Elgin's words regarding officials signaling, there should not have been time left after Hannah let the ball go out of bounds unless the official signaled to stop the clock. Since the ball clearly did not hit the floor until the clock had reached 1.7 or less,and it takes the ref time to react and it further takes time for the timer to see the signal and stop the clock, there was perhaps 0.5 left before the inbounds, which would require a "catch and shoot".

[Calshockfan]

Shockref wrote:

If Hannah grabs the loose ball with 1.9 seconds - Game over.
If WSU does a better job of preventing Woodfox from ever receiving the inbounds - Game over.
If Murry guards Woodfox better after he received the ball - Game over.
If WSU doesn't screw around for the first 25 minutes of the game - Game over.
Woodfox made a great shot and CU won - Game over.
The tape conspiracy may make some feel good on here, but it's so close...
Besides, I'm not going to get into the issue of 00's, lights and horn.
WSU made a fantastic come back and deserves a lot of credit. But if they played as hard during the come back for the first 25 minutes, they win the game by 10 points. It's a 40 minute game - not 1.9 seconds.

More importantly, if the officials and clock operator had done their jobs correctly, game over. Situations earlier in the game including bad calls by officials can be overcome, not so on the last play of the game. The idea that officials do not influence the outcome of games is just wrong. This is just another example of that happenning. You can talk about the other 39:58.1 all you like, but it doesn't change anything.

[ShockerFever]

After reviewing the play 30 times, Elgin said the clock started on time given the relay from the referee's signal to the scorer's table.

To sum it all up concisely, there are NCAA rules that permit use of visual replayto adjust the clock to override the official's signals as long as there should be time remaining; but if time expires, then it is only the official's signal that matters, no matter how tardy or ineffective that signal may be or the ultimate effect on the time remaining.

Using Elgin's words regarding officials signaling, there should not have been time left after Hannah let the ball go out of bounds unless the official signaled to stop the clock. Since the ball clearly did not hit the floor until the clock had reached 1.7 or less,and it takes the ref time to react and it further takes time for the timer to see the signal and stop the clock, there was perhaps 0.5 left before the inbounds, which would require a "catch and shoot".

And that's the point some people (Elgin) failed to point out. If you're gonna stop the clock EXACTLY when it hits the floor off Hannah, then you start the damn clock EXACTLY when it touches his fingertips.

We got canned on both ends.

[ShockCity]

Commissioner Doug Elgin said there were no clock issues, although he also had wondered why the time passed so slowly while watching from press row.

Well, if there were no clock issues, why was he wondering why the time passed so slowly? I used to respect Elgin, not any more. In my mind, there have been too many "coincidences" involving Shocker basketball games, particularly the last few years.

[pogo]

I was listening to Bruce and Bob this morning and I believe Bob mentioned that they had had some problems in the previous game with the time keeper. He also stated this individual WAS NOT a valley official but one the Valley HAD to use since he was a UNION member and he was or his union was under contract with UStl Billikins to run the damn clock. I have no problem with the way the games were called and I loved the fact that each team got to play and not be flagged every 30 seconds. I think the fact that we (the Valley) had no control over the clown working the clock sucks, but this explains a major facet of this timing problem. The Valley needs to control all aspects of its premier event or they risk losing credibility.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

The Valley needs to control all aspects of its premier event or they risk losing credibility.

Risk? RISK!?! Until I see the film from under the basket, or Elgin comes out and says..."Yes, we did make a mistake," then the Valley has ZERO credibility with me.

:goshocks: LEAVE THE VALLEY