I'm telling ya...

[t7017s]

We need to move Toure' to the point and Clevin to the sg. Toure can handle the point and passes well inside and knows how to probe the defense. Clevin just shoots and thats it. Why not have him coming off screens and popping. It really seems obvious to me we have needed this all year. I know Clevin is smaller than anyone would like at the 2 but the way he can stroke it... it just makes sense. Neither of our "pg" can go another direction other than to their right as they have poor ball handling skills that gets masked because they are so small that taking a ball from them pretty much guarantees a foul. Toure' can handle the ball and has the size needed to get the ball into the paint that our "pg" don't. Clevin has the shot to come off screens with his quick release and punish people. Hes also smaller and can slide around picks and screens with much more ease. I can't be the only one that feels this way... Can I???

[RoyalShock]

I think you're right in regards to Clevin's skillset. I'm not sure I completely concur with Murry being "the" PG. Toure does seem to be able to pass on the move, but I've noticed a lot of very poor entry passes lately.

Though it would be an interesting experiment and one that is probably more reasonable than putting Murry at SF.

[1979Shocker]

Early in the season on one of the Coach's Shows, Marshall said that Murry was learning the 1 and 2, so that Kyles could come in and play the 2. I think that's what I heard. That was probably at least 2 months ago when he said that.

[t7017s]

Well I'm not saying for his career. Just this year or until we get an adequate pg here.

What does Toure' do well? Handle the rock and probe defenses with his dribble! He also has a great basketball IQ and a natural competitive nature to be a leader. These are things you want from your PG.

Whats does Clevin do well? Shoot the rock!

Seems like it just makes the most logical sense. I think its time that Toure' steps up and becomes this teams leader. He has it in him and he seems to be the only one that doesn't get down or pissed when things go south. He is cool out there and should just flat out take the role irregardless of the fact he is a Freshman. It's clear nobody else wants the role. It really seems to me this is "his" team more than anyone else.

[RoyalShock]

I'm not convinced that Toure's ball-handling can withstand the consistent pressure he'll face from the opposing PG, who is often the quickest player on the floor.

But like I said, it would be an interesting thing to try.

[Snapshot9]

What we need to look at, and the coaching staff does too, is the basics in basketball. We always remain so hopeful of new recruits, but the fact is, when we see them play, we see their weak points as well as their strengths.

ALL players should use their strengths, but they should also work on their weak points to improve into a better overall player. If passing is a weak point (and we are kind of lazy on passing), it should be worked on to have crisp 2 handed passes.

Overall, we try to play to our strengths, but many of our players are not well versed in all aspects of the game. Hawkins is a perfect example of that, so is Chamberlain. They both are too 1 dimensional. Chamberlain is not a particularly a good dribbler, he floats on the perimeter, does not create openings (with a little dance), and just puts up a shot. That is hardly fulfilling the role as a Point Guard. I know, I was a point guard in school. You can get away with that in High School, you can not get away with it in D-1 ball, at least not effectively.

The coaching staff should be able to recognize the weak points of players and be doing something about it. You have to go one on one with each player before it can all come together to be a potent offense. And it takes lots of hard work, let alone talent. A perfect example is Paul Miller, look at how much he developed over his career at WSU. It was very evident that he put a lot of work into his game, even extra time.

I still would like to know what coach is doing one on one with the big men, Stutz and Durley??? We could really use Antoine or Cliff on the coaching staff.

And I think we should keep a proper perspective on the new players for next year. Blair, Manigault, and Hamilton are known for their defensive ability, and not offensive abilities. Coy is known for both, probably a little more offense than defense, seeing how he averaged 26-27 ppg as a senior in High School. But all of them will have weak points as well as strengths, and it is best that we don't forget that.

[ShockTalk]

Why are we talking about moving Hannah from point? Do you know how hard it is to be a successful PG when most of the time you're having to pass to stationary objects (I'd say players, but I'm not sure the name fits)? Hannah averages over 4 assists a game with 2.5 TO. Murry has more turnovers for the season that Hannah (if fact leads the team in turnovers) probably because of making poor freshman choices that Hannah knows better than to do. I'm not knocking Murry, because I think he is having to do, or feels he has to do, more than should be expected of him at this time.

I believe the problem lies elsewhere. Ramon tries his best to be a team leader, but needs help. Who on this team has the most D1 experience on this team along with 2 years under Marshall's system, is one of the most athletic players on the team, and appeared to be a leader at his previous school? This player can lead with experience as well as by example. Most should know who I'm talking about. If he's not willing to step up, his lack of this leadership, energy, and 14 points over the last 4 games just can't continue if this team is to be successful.

With our normal starting line up, Hannah, Murry, Hawkins, Clemente, and Stutz/Durley, we have only one real threat from the outside - Hannah. If you sag in the middle on D and put as much pressure on Hannah as possible, you will generally shut the Shox down. We need another shooter on the outside. I still say you move Murry to SF and bring in Chamberlain, Hatch, or Kyles, depending on the situation. I believe all three of them are better 3 pt shooters than Hawkins and it would relieve Murry from having to be the second option from 3 pt which he has not done very well. Having more options from the outside should also soften the sag inside. This, along with not allowing players to stand around, should also cut down on turnovers and increase our offensive rebounds.

Our recent problems has not been because who is at point. 10 of 11 players in the last game had turnovers, 4 having 3 TOs, for a total of 20. And do you really want to add more to Murry's already over-flowing plate?

[vancedave56]

Please break into paragraphs; I'm old and can't follow along. :(

[ShockTalk]

There. Better now.

[t7017s]

Why are we talking about moving Hannah from point? Do you know how hard it is to be a successful PG when most of the time you're having to pass to stationary objects (I'd say players, but I'm not sure the name fits)? Hannah averages over 4 assists a game with 2.5 TO. Murry has more turnovers for the season that Hannah (if fact leads the team in turnovers) probably because of making poor freshman choices that Hannah knows better than to do. I'm not knocking Murry, because I think he is having to do, or feels he has to do, more than should be expected of him at this time.

I believe the problem lies elsewhere. Ramon tries his best to be a team leader, but needs help. Who on this team has the most D1 experience on this team along with 2 years under Marshall's system, is one of the most athletic players on the team, and appeared to be a leader at his previous school? This player can lead with experience as well as by example. Most should know who I'm talking about. If he's not willing to step up, his lack of this leadership, energy, and 14 points over the last 4 games just can't continue if this team is to be successful.

With our normal starting line up, Hannah, Murry, Hawkins, Clemente, and Stutz/Durley, we have only one real threat from the outside - Hannah. If you sag in the middle on D and put as much pressure on Hannah as possible, you will generally shut the Shox down. We need another shooter on the outside. I still say you move Murry to SF and bring in Chamberlain, Hatch, or Kyles, depending on the situation. I believe all three of them are better 3 pt shooters than Hawkins and it would relieve Murry from having to be the second option from 3 pt which he has not done very well. Having more options from the outside should also soften the sag inside. This, along with not allowing players to stand around, should also cut down on turnovers and increase our offensive rebounds.

Our recent problems has not been because who is at point. 10 of 11 players in the last game had turnovers, 4 having 3 TOs, for a total of 20. And do you really want to add more to Murry's already over-flowing plate?

Toure' has the most turnover because hes the only on willing to listen to the coach and pass the damn ball into the paint. I think I would blame plenty of those turnovers on bad receivers in the paint and not on sloppy freshman passes. Am I saying he hasn't had some freshman turnovers or bad passes? No I'm not.

I agree about Hawkins needing to step it up in all regards. his defense has been awful, he isn't taking jumpers when he should and hes charging to the hole when he shouldn't. Hes not giving us anything right now at all let alone leadership.

Saying Clevin is the only threat from outside is just not true at all. Toure' can flat stroke it from the outside and has quite a bit the last several games. Is he as consistent as Clevin from out there? No. But not many people in the country are like Clevin when he's feeling it.

Move Toure' to the point and all a sudden you have someone who understands how to get the team to go and how to actually pass inside. If everyone stands around well you still have the guy with the ball that you want to, that's going to draw defenders and get someone open for a look. I have confidence that hes much better suited to passing to the open guy and know where that guy is than 5'4" Clevin. Clevin gets to wound up and upset when things go wrong which happens way to often (and who can blame him). Toure' doesnt seem to let stuff bother him. hes just flat out a competitor. I'll take a cool headed collected pg over one that throws about 5 mini temper tantrums a game (again its hard to blame him). I think Toure' can control tempo much better and is much more proficient in transition than Clevin as well.

I don't have a problem with Toure' playing some 3 at all. The kid is very versatile. At this point anything that might work is worth a shot. We just are not competitive at all and that has to change!!! We may be young and inexperienced but so are several teams. I think the effort the kids give often times isn't bad so much as misdirected. By that I mean they think to much and worry about making mistakes. I think they get so focused in not being the guy to make a mistake that all a sudden things come to a grinding halt. They just need to get out there have some fun and find some pace and let it come to them and not worry about mistakes. Mistakes are going to happen. I don't want to see "effort" so much as I want to see hustle and flow.

[ShockTalk]

t7017t -- You made my point in your first paragraph. If the post can't catch the ball, it makes no difference who's at the PG. On the other hand, if it's too crowded down low, how do you open it up? Murry's shooting under .330 from 3 pt. If you have another 3 pt threat in there, the middle should open up, less pressure on Murry's shooting (% goes up), and now Hannah feels like he can get the ball inside without having to force it.

[t7017s]

t7017t -- You made my point in your first paragraph. If the post can't catch the ball, it makes no difference who's at the PG. On the other hand, if it's too crowded down low, how do you open it up? Murry's shooting under .330 from 3 pt. If you have another 3 pt threat in there, the middle should open up, less pressure on Murry's shooting (% goes up), and now Hannah feels like he can get the ball inside without having to force it.

I don't think so. I think Toure' has to be guarded much closer and gets around his defender with much more frequency demanding a help defender to move over thus leaving a man open... that could be anyone. Toure' shot 6/14 from 3 over the last three games. Some big ones in that Drake game to keep us in it. That's a respectable 43%. I would call that a threat if I was the oponent.

Toure' can break his defender and create so much better with the ball in his hands than Clevin. That's what I want in my pg. Clevin doesn't hurt anyone with the ball in his hands unless its leaving from the 3 line. Maximizing the strengths and minimizing the weakness of both players.

I really think Toure' can get others better opportunities than Clevin. Right now when Nobody is moving on Offense it could really help guys get a few baskets and that might lead to a little confidence and help get the general flow of the game going for us. We have no flow at all right now. Clevin isn't fast enough down the court off a rebound to get the ball to a guy in a position to score before the defense sets. Toure' would give us a better opportunity for a few more easy baskets in that regard as well.

Like I said I'm not opposed to what your saying either. I think toure' would be fantastic at the three just the same. I don't see any reason you couldn't run him at all 3 positions in a game. I think Coach has maybe avoided that a bit to try and establish roles for other guys at a particular position thinking the focus on only one only will help him get more out of them.

Having Clevin at the point reminds me of when Turgeon Tried to run Ogirri at the point and not Matt. Matt just brought so much more flow to a game and held the team together in sync. I think Toure' offers that more than Clevin at the moment.

[ShockTalk]

Much of what you've said, Murry can do from the SF position as well -- shoot 3 pts and break down a defender. On a break off a rebound, the ball can go to whoever breaks out, however, I'd rather have Murry finishing the play than starting it.

On made baskets, we usually walk the ball down to half court anyway (unfortunately). Once we're in a half court situation, we stand around so much, I don't know how anyone can tell who's playing PG, SG, or SF. Nevertheless, the first time the ball is in Murry's hands in a half court situation, call him a PG or call him a SF, he can still do the same thing.

[Aargh]

Murry's passing is soft and often telegraphed. I don't think this is the year to try Murry at PG.

First-year D1 PG's often have problems. Marshall didn't have any good options. JuCo PG's are often better than Fr PG's. Last year there was only one true PG on the roster. Braeuer graduated.

Marshall recruited the best 2 JuCo PG's he could get.

PG is a position where you need an experienced player in the position who's a Jr and a Fr learning the system. Marshall didn't have that luxury. With no PG's on the roster, he had to go the JuCo route . I hope fans have noticed that a high recruiting priority was a Fr PG.

Murry is a SG who needs some time to figure out when his passes are going to result in 2 points at the other end.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

If Toure, Clevin, and Reggie can all get hot during a stretch of 4 games in March, we could be dancing this year.

It will happen that they all get hot, and they are warming up already, as the stats have indicated. If we shoot against MSU like we did from Michigan St. through Creighton, we lose by 30.

I say leave it alone, let them continue to build some chemistry, and hope the shooting numbers stay the same while the understanding and confidence and chemistry develops.

BTW, those who know who you are, I am not predicting we will win the Valley tourney. I'm saying we have seen Toure and Clevin both light it up for most of a game, and if Reggie can pick up where Clevin left off when he sits, watch out. Games in March are won with Guard play.