Ellis Has Completely Lost His Confidence

[SpanglerFan316]

shockerfan: A really good coach needs to do what works. If you're right and AE responds well to the public criticism, then Marshall was successful. If AE gets worse, Marshall was unsuccessful. It's not about being PC or not being PC; it's about putting the best team on the court every game. Some kids you handle one way and others you handle another way.

A coach who is "dogmatic" (e.g. "I'll never be PC!") is probably a very bad coach. (Sometimes bad coaches have success on the court for a time.) Injecting politics into a sports discussion is another of those silly items.

[pinstripers]

Showing compassion to Murry and ripping Ellis's azz is not the same, is it?

[SpanglerFan316]

Showing compassion to Murry and ripping Ellis's azz is not the same, is it?

Well, let's see ... Common sense says "No, it's not the same." Just as my posts in this thread are little more than ordinary common sense.

I suspect that there is a point to your question but this point is not obvious. Care to clarify?

[pinstripers]

I don't think he is going to rip TM. I don't think he is using the same yardstick.

[engrshock]

With respect to the "intentional foul" of course it was intentional just like thousands of others that are committed on a player about to make a lay-up. The difference was that most of the others are called as regular fouls rather than intentional because the defensive player went for the ball. Having seen AE's "intentional foul" up close he hit the Bradley's player arm near the ball, did not grab him and did not knock him down. It should have been a regular foul rather than an intentional. I am not sure what difference that made in the game but it was not a good call.

[ShauXTyme]

I don't believe my suggestion that GM's actions with AE have anything to do with my "PCness" - it's about coaching and teaching in the correct manner as it pertains to individual players, and that player's part of the team. GM is the CEO of this team - all I'm saying is if the CEO of most organizations handled themselves the way GM handled himself that evening, many top-level managers/supervisors would be leaving to look for another job (their decision). Just look at the photo of GM on the Gregg Marshall thread - is that something that makes WSU fans proud??? It doesn't make me proud - and I wouldn't want to work/play for that CEO - just my opinion.

[tgcshock]

I don't believe my suggestion that GM's actions with AE have anything to do with my "PCness" - it's about coaching and teaching in the correct manner as it pertains to individual players, and that player's part of the team. GM is the CEO of this team - all I'm saying is if the CEO of most organizations handled themselves the way GM handled himself that evening, many top-level managers/supervisors would be leaving to look for another job (their decision). Just look at the photo of GM on the Gregg Marshall thread - is that something that makes WSU fans proud??? It doesn't make me proud - and I wouldn't want to work/play for that CEO - just my opinion.

Perhaps the paradigm you are using is not the best. Coaches and CEO's are not the same, just as sports and business generally have different constructs. For example, employees that deliberately dump coolers of Gatorade and ice on their CEO can expect to be fired. That is not appropriate business behavior. But in sports, the Gatorade bath is a sign of affection and respect. The realm of "play" generally (and sports in particular) functions differently than other parts of life. It doesn't mean there are no rules of conduct in sports (or that there is never any overlap between sports behavior and behavior in other areas of life). It just means that there are certain things that are appropriate in the world of sports that might not transfer to other areas.

[Veritas]

It's tough to say how AE will respond. As to the tactics used to "motivate", I certainly don't care for Bobby Knight's antics, and much prefer a John Wooden type of coach. Wooden was much more successful. However, there are explosive types of coaches that have been very successful such as Woody Hayes at Ohio State. I'd have to think that HCGM is trying to use whatever method works for AE.
I suspect AE will rise to the challenge.

Regardless, HCGM overall success at Wichita State will dictate whether he is remembered as a "passionate" coach or an "out of control" coach. It's a fine line to walk that gets even thinner when a team is losing or rebuilding.
I expect he will be remembered as a "passionate" coach.

I will be pulling for AE to have a tremendous game and having HCGM give him a good pat-on-the-back.

[ShockerGorilla]

To me, it looks like he may be on his way out the door. He just doesn't have his head in the game a lot of the time, and when he is on the bench he just hung his head Wednesday night. I am hoping this is only his turf toe injury that is still bothering him, but it could be an attitude problem, too.

I hope I am wrong, and he gets back to last season's final games' form.

[SubGod22]

With respect to the "intentional foul" of course it was intentional just like thousands of others that are committed on a player about to make a lay-up. The difference was that most of the others are called as regular fouls rather than intentional because the defensive player went for the ball. Having seen AE's "intentional foul" up close he hit the Bradley's player arm near the ball, did not grab him and did not knock him down. It should have been a regular foul rather than an intentional. I am not sure what difference that made in the game but it was not a good call.

That was an easy intentional foul call. He hammered the guy with both arms and made it apparent that he didn't care about anything other than fouling. There is a way to foul a player intentionally without letting him score and not being called for the intentional. Ellis was nowhere near that. Nobody was surprised by the call.

I think with Aaron the gloves have come off. Marshall has been gentle with him in the past and it obviously hasn't done much good. Maybe this will get to Ellis and he'll pull it together. You can't be gentle with everyone. Sometimes this behavior is needed and it does work. It doesn't work with everyone but nothing else has worked for Ellis so far.

Why hasn't anyone brought up when he ripped into both Hatch and Chamberlain? He had both of them by the jersey and was definitely not asking how their mothers were.

I haven't seen anything from Marshall that bothers me yet.

[SubGod22]

I don't believe my suggestion that GM's actions with AE have anything to do with my "PCness" - it's about coaching and teaching in the correct manner as it pertains to individual players, and that player's part of the team. GM is the CEO of this team - all I'm saying is if the CEO of most organizations handled themselves the way GM handled himself that evening, many top-level managers/supervisors would be leaving to look for another job (their decision). Just look at the photo of GM on the Gregg Marshall thread - is that something that makes WSU fans proud??? It doesn't make me proud - and I wouldn't want to work/play for that CEO - just my opinion.

Would you rather he sit on the bench and not move? That picture was him trying to get the crowd into I believe. Or it could have been taken during the run when he was excited and getting into it and getting the players going as well. I don't see anything from that pic to lose any pride or confidence in Marshall or WSU. It's about time we have some fire on the sideline of basketball games.

[Slalomshocker]

I guess maybe we should suggest to Coach that he write formal letters to do his coaching, maybe coach from the press row ala JoePa.... or just maybe we should just let him coach. Ripping a kid is nothing new, the players know that it comes with the territory. You dont want to be ripped infront of 10000 fans, dont "f" up so often. That is the world of coaching, in a game players and coaches are fired up, so its pretty difficult to have a tea-sipping conversation about how a player messed up. As far as Coach waving for the crowd to get up, how is that any different than a player waving the crowd on? Should we ask them not to do that because we are a good fan base? How bout we try this...how bout we stand and yell and cheer for more than 30 secs at a time. Our fans get up, oposing coach calls a time out, we sit down and get quiet. No turnover, no bad shot, just a simple little t.o. from the other team.... I would have to say our crowd is just like AE, lots of potential, but doesnt show up on a consistant basis.

[SubGod22]

I guess maybe we should suggest to Coach that he write formal letters to do his coaching, maybe coach from the press row ala JoePa.... or just maybe we should just let him coach. Ripping a kid is nothing new, the players know that it comes with the territory. You dont want to be ripped infront of 10000 fans, dont "f" up so often. That is the world of coaching, in a game players and coaches are fired up, so its pretty difficult to have a tea-sipping conversation about how a player messed up. As far as Coach waving for the crowd to get up, how is that any different than a player waving the crowd on? Should we ask them not to do that because we are a good fan base? How bout we try this...how bout we stand and yell and cheer for more than 30 secs at a time. Our fans get up, oposing coach calls a time out, we sit down and get quiet. No turnover, no bad shot, just a simple little t.o. from the other team.... I would have to say our crowd is just like AE, lots of potential, but doesnt show up on a consistant basis.

:good:

[engrshock]

With respect to the "intentional foul" of course it was intentional just like thousands of others that are committed on a player about to make a lay-up. The difference was that most of the others are called as regular fouls rather than intentional because the defensive player went for the ball. Having seen AE's "intentional foul" up close he hit the Bradley's player arm near the ball, did not grab him and did not knock him down. It should have been a regular foul rather than an intentional. I am not sure what difference that made in the game but it was not a good call.

That was an easy intentional foul call. He hammered the guy with both arms and made it apparent that he didn't care about anything other than fouling. There is a way to foul a player intentionally without letting him score and not being called for the intentional. Ellis was nowhere near that. Nobody was surprised by the call.

I think with Aaron the gloves have come off. Marshall has been gentle with him in the past and it obviously hasn't done much good. Maybe this will get to Ellis and he'll pull it together. You can't be gentle with everyone. Sometimes this behavior is needed and it does work. It doesn't work with everyone but nothing else has worked for Ellis so far.

Why hasn't anyone brought up when he ripped into both Hatch and Chamberlain? He had both of them by the jersey and was definitely not asking how their mothers were.

I haven't seen anything from Marshall that bothers me yet.

I might agree with you if the play happened at the other end of the court but it was within 30 feet of me and others in my section and Ellis definitely brought his hand/arm down across the Bradley players arm right at the ball. He almost got the ball and not arm. I don't know what angle you had at the play but it was not a clear intentional foul of the type that is usually called as such. I have seen a lot worse intentional fouls not called as such. Usually the foul has to be a grab of the other player or hacking across the shoulders not near the ball. As I said of course it was intentional but it was certainly not violent and the Bradley player just wasn't able to shoot the ball because of the foul.

What happened with the foul called on Toure at the other end where the Bradley player fell down? Toure and the others acted as if the Bradley player did something that made it look like Toure fouled him. The ref indicated he shoved the player in the chest.

[pinstripers]

I was very surprised it was called an intentional foul. My seats are high, but it was right in front of me. That is a seperate issue from the azz-reaming he took from HCGM. I'm not particularly an Ellis fan, but yeah, HCGM was out of line, I thought, tho that happened at a different time.