What in the hell was tonight?

[tropicalshox]

Patience. We lost to a pretty decent team on the road who has two seniors and seven juniors.

[SubGod22]

If Durley won't spend the effort to post up down low...And it does take all out bust butt effort, then all we have is Stutz,...

Unfortunately, we have seen even less "bust-butt" effort out of Stutz. Durley better step up to the bar we have all set for him, or that ninth place finish will be realized.

I think you're wrong there. Garrett does bust his butt, but he lacks the strength sometimes to do what we want. Physical strength isn't JTs problem. Mental strength may be as he doesn't seem to want it sometimes. At least when Garrett is in you can see him working hard to do what he needs to do, he just sometimes can't.

[shockall]

If Durley won't spend the effort to post up down low...And it does take all out bust butt effort, then all we have is Stutz,...

Unfortunately, we have seen even less "bust-butt" effort out of Stutz. Durley better step up to the bar we have all set for him, or that ninth place finish will be realized.

I think you're wrong there. Garrett does bust his butt, but he lacks the strength sometimes to do what we want. Physical strength isn't JTs problem. Mental strength may be as he doesn't seem to want it sometimes. At least when Garrett is in you can see him working hard to do what he needs to do, he just sometimes can't.

If that's what you see, you probably didn't notice that the Shockers score better when Stutz is sitting on the bench. In all the game ending runs of late, it's been Durley pulling duty on the floor and Stutz was delegated to cheerleading on the sidelines. You are right, he is as weak as he was when he landed here 6 months ago. Somehow, I don't expect that to change at all this year.

[fairbanksfan]

Somehow, I think your assessment is way off.

[bloodgold]

RDR is right...winning makes it fun. Not sure that the kids need to play tight, but not sure that fun is a pre-requisite to winning. Maybe they need to relax is a better way of saying something similar.

Our big men are all big liabilities in their own way right now. JT does not know where he is supposed to be on defense or on offense. Aaron Ellis wants to roam the perimeter like JT does, which is evidence that Aaron has not found a position he can play. Garrett is just young and needs to get stronger; that's really it. If he has a mean streak, I would love to see it. My analysis says Ellis has maxed out his potential; Durley has maxed out his potiential to give a crap; and Stutz hasn't begun to imagine how good he could be. Stutz has to be a maniac in the weightroom, though, or else he will be on a 7 year plan---too late for the Shox.

[1979Shocker]

My analysis says Ellis has maxed out his potential;

I don't think Ellis has maxed out his potential. If he has, he did it last year in the MVC Tournament.

[SirShoxAlot]

If I was HCGM I would have just came on the postgame show and totally melted down. I would have used a ton of expletives and made a sound like I was throwing my chair and knocking over the microphone when I left...

If you were HCGM we would be 0-8 right now and you would be fired at the end of the year.

You know how babies are really cute at first and then after a while their crying gets really annoying?

[ShockerPrez]

On second thought.

I am starting to lean more on HCGM just laying into these guys. The effort isn't there, the emotion isn't there. The offense has no resemblance of anything that can produce points. So we are stuck with 2 situations.

Either the players just don't give a crap, in which case HCGM needs to tear them a new one. Screw hurting their feelings. Their old enough to take it. And if they aren't, they have no business being apart of a program that hailed the moto of MTXE. They are getting free college and if they don't want to go along with the program, they can get the hell out right now before we waste another minute putting up with their crap.

Or this really is what HCGM is coaching, which if this is the case, he is not qualified to lead this team.

Personally, I am leaning toward the first scenario. So HCGM needs to figure out who is going to give the effort and try and develop them this year, while he has the leeway to fail. If the guys who have the talent don't want to play, they can read some writing on the wall for all I care. I've been a WSU fan for my 33 years in existence and consider myself patient. I want to win with HCGM and am willing to give him 5 years.

[Cdizzle]

If Durley won't spend the effort to post up down low...And it does take all out bust butt effort, then all we have is Stutz,...

Unfortunately, we have seen even less "bust-butt" effort out of Stutz. Durley better step up to the bar we have all set for him, or that ninth place finish will be realized.

I think you're wrong there. Garrett does bust his butt, but he lacks the strength sometimes to do what we want. Physical strength isn't JTs problem. Mental strength may be as he doesn't seem to want it sometimes. At least when Garrett is in you can see him working hard to do what he needs to do, he just sometimes can't.

If that's what you see, you probably didn't notice that the Shockers score better when Stutz is sitting on the bench. In all the game ending runs of late, it's been Durley pulling duty on the floor and Stutz was delegated to cheerleading on the sidelines. You are right, he is as weak as he was when he landed here 6 months ago. Somehow, I don't expect that to change at all this year.

Place your bets. I'm putting the O/U on posts til he calls him 'Fifi' at 4.

[C0|dB|00ded]

If I was HCGM I would have just came on the postgame show and totally melted down. I would have used a ton of expletives and made a sound like I was throwing my chair and knocking over the microphone when I left...

If you were HCGM we would be 0-8 right now and you would be fired at the end of the year.

You know how babies are really cute at first and then after a while their crying gets really annoying?

Thanks for your input Mrs. Marshall. Please let the hubby know that we really want a win this Friday!!1


T


...8)

[C0|dB|00ded]

On second thought.

I am starting to lean more on HCGM just laying into these guys. The effort isn't there, the emotion isn't there. The offense has no resemblance of anything that can produce points. So we are stuck with 2 situations.

Either the players just don't give a crap, in which case HCGM needs to tear them a new one. Screw hurting their feelings. Their old enough to take it. And if they aren't, they have no business being apart of a program that hailed the moto of MTXE. They are getting free college and if they don't want to go along with the program, they can get the hell out right now before we waste another minute putting up with their crap.

Or this really is what HCGM is coaching, which if this is the case, he is not qualified to lead this team.

Personally, I am leaning toward the first scenario. So HCGM needs to figure out who is going to give the effort and try and develop them this year, while he has the leeway to fail. If the guys who have the talent don't want to play, they can read some writing on the wall for all I care. I've been a WSU fan for my 33 years in existence and consider myself patient. I want to win with HCGM and am willing to give him 5 years.

Either the players just don't give a crap, in which case HCGM needs to tear them a new one. Screw hurting their feelings. Their old enough to take it. And if they aren't, they have no business being apart of a program that hailed the moto of MTXE. They are getting free college and if they don't want to go along with the program, they can get the hell out right now before we waste another minute putting up with their crap.

Blah blah blah.. same thing we were complaining about last year...

If the players do not come out motivated to play that is on the coaches shoulders 100%. His job is not only to teach the X's and O's, it is to teach these kids how to become men. He is one part basketball coach, one part role model, and one part motivator.

The sign of a good coach is how much he can get out of his players. When his players play beyond the appearance of their potential you have a keeper!


T


...8)

[Aargh]

Marshall probably saw in October what fans are seeing in December - not much offense. How do you win games that way? You limit the other team's possessions, try to keep them from scoring when they have the ball, and maximize your own possessions.

You coach rebounding and defense. There is a limited number of practice minutes teams are allowed. Every minute spent on defense and rebounding is a minute that's not spent on offense. It seems Marshall has decided to concentrate on teaching defense so far.

We'll see if anything changes after semester break. That's an opportunity to spend extra time teaching.

If the team is lacking confidence in their offense, that would explain the slow starts in games. If the team is either not practicing offense much or not executing the offense well, that would explain a lack of confidence.

[aircap]

I have been lurking for years and finally decided to plunge into the fray. This seems like a perfect post to start.

It is my recollection that (easily wrong) that at about this time every season a similar post appears. It does not seem to matter who the coach is, or who the team members are, but around the sixth game of the year to some posters the sky is falling – the team lost the game, the players are stumbling around and, most consistently, the coach does not know what to do. I understand why they appear, after all the posters are fans and want the team to win. For years I read these posts and agreed. In the last few years I have changed my opinion.

The main reason I changed my opinion is I decided that I need to root for the Shockers over the long haul. I cheer for them to win every game but I do not expect them to do so, especially this year. Although almost all posters on this board seem to agree this is a rebuilding season, after a few games they seem to forget what that means. This is a very young team. Our one “senior” starter is playing his second year in Division 1 basketball. In my opinion that makes him a sophomore in Division 1. No slam on Ramon, he is playing like a true hero. But the step up from juco to Div 1 is a big step. Most of the other starters and the first off the bench are either true freshmen (or juco freshmen) and sophomores.

With a few exceptions these young men are learning an entirely new system and playing at a pace and against players the likes of which they have never seen. What worked for them in high school or juco ball is not adequate for Division one ball. They are learning new skills – offensive and defensive. They are learning new systems – offensive and defensive. They are having to learn how to play with and become a team with a group of new people. No matter how smart they are, or how good they were, they are still in the stage of learning where nothing is instinctive. What the coach wants them to do is foreign to them so they either revert to what used to work for them (usually trying to do too much on their own) or having to consciously think about the next thing they are supposed to do, particularly on offense. This makes them at least a half a step slow to set screens, make cuts or passes. It shows up as turnovers and sloppy offense. It shows up as guys trying to hard to makes all the shots themselves instead of making the necessary passes. Which is, of course, what we are seeing. Until the offense becomes so instinctive that its execution takes no real thought we will still see the same poor offensive production. It will come, it will just take time.

Personally I think our defense, with a few exceptions, is way ahead of our offense. No big surprise.

Another hard thing for a fan to remember is that these are young men. They may be athletically gifted but they are in college, with all the difficulties and confusions that causes. Some are probably homesick. Some may just now be getting a glimmer of what it means to be a student-athlete. I don’t know about you, but for me being in college was hard enough without the additional burden of having to spend long hours at practice and having the burden of everyone’s expectations. I guess for that reason alone I am willing to cut them some slack.

If you watch carefully in each game you can see an “Aha” moment for a player where something they have been coached to do works for them. My expectation is that as the season progresses there will be more and more of them in each game until they disappear as the flow of the game becomes instinctual. For me that is the real pleasure of following this team – watching young men improve personally and improve as a team. It ain’t easy, and it ain’t quick, but it will come. These guys are players, they hate to lose and they want to win.

It is too bad that you can already see some folks considering throwing the coach under the bus. This is a new level for him also. The competition, the athletes and the coaches in the Valley are a big step up for him too. There’s a learning curve for the coach too, but I think HCM has all the tools he needs to succeed, he just needs time and a few more good recruiting classes. Personally, I like the kind of ball he coaches, particularly hard-nosed defense and rebounding. There’s not much I like better than a shot clock violation against an opponant.

A major benefit of following the Valley is that most players are there for four years. There is such a huge change from freshman year to senior year it is almost magical. You get to see an entire team grow up and mature and become real ballers. Think Paul Miller maturing into a major force in the Valley his senior year. Then it starts all over again. We are right now at the beginning of a new cycle. Enjoy the ride.

So am I disappointed in the season so far? Not really. If you are honest, it is what you expected, just not what you hoped for. If the team is still playing at this level in February it might be some cause for concern, but I think there will be some substantial improvement. Will we win the Valley? Not in the cards this year, but look out next year, especially if we get someone to replace the rebounds Ramon is getting this year.

[kochHead]

Nice first post. :wsu_posters:

[aircap]

<blush> Thanks