Canada Trip

[ShockingButTrue]

Zach Brown is already a more valuable player than Evan Wessel. Same goes for McDuffie and Kelly.

Blocks per 100 possessions:
Zach Brown 1.2
Markis McDuffie 0.7
Rashard Kelly 0.6
Evan Wessel 0.2

Steals per 100 possessions:
Markis McDuffie 2.6
Zach Brown 2.4
Rashard Kelly 1.8
Evan Wessel 1.4

Defensive Rating (estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions):
Markis McDuffie 89.6
Rashard Kelly 90.2
Zach Brown 90.3
Evan Wessel 94.7

3P%:
Rashard Kelly 31.6%
Markis McDuffie 31.5%
Zach Brown 30.6%
Evan Wessel 26.7% (He took 105 three pointers this last year...105!!!)

Usage%:
Markis McDuffie 22.4%
Zach Brown 18.4%
Rashard Kelly 15.9%
Evan Wessel 10.7%

Points scored/generated per 100 possessions:
Zach Brown 114.1
Markis McDuffie 106.5
Evan Wessel 104.7
Rashard Kelly 104.3

Total Rebound %:
Rashard Kelly 12.9%
Markis McDuffie 10.1%
Zach Brown 8.7%
Evan Wessel 8.3%

All stats per http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...tate/2016.html.

Now, I am the first to say that statistics like these typically need a healthy amount of context. But given that these four players played the 3/4 most of last year, I think it's fairly obvious (both quantitatively and qualitatively) that our replacement(s) for Evan Wessel will be an upgrade.

Hi Kel... :unconscious:

Probably for different reasons, but I'm guessing b self, l. krystowiak,& b jacobsen all wish your -ahem- analysis were true and E. Wessel would have played less minutes in their pivotal contests against the Shocks (ESPECIALLY the head chicken!), and Z. Brown and R. Kelley played more.

Unforced errors (are you a baseball guy?) will get anyone more bench time than those who don't quite as much in any coaches system.

So, have you read Bill Bradleys book A Sense Of Where You Are? Some players do indeed have better court vision than others you know? It's a skill that can't be taught. Kinda like heighth.

Enjoyed catching up with you again. I always enjoy your original sequitors.

[ShockerPrez]

Wessel did exactly what WSU needed him to on nearly every occassion. I don't know what else you could ask for.

As for breakout seasons for players, I don't know who all will. Right now, no one on our squad can vouch to having an All Valley season under their belt. But after the season I'm thinking at least 4 guys will be All Valley 1st and 2nd team.

Too many guys with talent this year to not think at least half of them will emerge.

[homegrownshocker]

Evan was a loyal local product that played out of position during his career (due to the talent at his true position). Undersized inside player that did his best. Always thought he might do a better job of exploiting the defense by driving the ball at taller players. Really became a three point shooting specialist. Have to like the one game performance verses the Jayhawks. I appreciate his efforts in that enjoyable victory.

[Kel Varnsen]

I love Evan as much as the next guy. Evan did as much as he could with what he had and left it all out on the court. That is to be applauded and it is great to see a Wichita product so visible with our Shockers. But the notion that we will have a tough time replacing him is bunk.

[jdshock]

Makes me wonder if Coach Marshall has a slew of other stats he uses.

I'd be shocked if he didn't. HCGM's teams are all incredible defenders, but they also tend to be very efficient on offense, even if they're not flashy (and despite kind of falling off efficiency-wise at the end of last season). I'd think a highly efficient offense is a great sign that he utilizes all available statistics.

That said, anyone who says "better pass that on to HCGM" is just trying to shut down the discussion. Certainly we're not coming up with anything here that HCGM hasn't already thought about a hundred times over. But we're talking on a basketball forum in July. If your only posts are criticizing other people for making arguments about our players, you should probably take a break for a while.

[Kel Varnsen]

Hi Kel... :unconscious:

Probably for different reasons, but I'm guessing b self, l. krystowiak,& b jacobsen all wish your -ahem- analysis were true and E. Wessel would have played less minutes in their pivotal contests against the Shocks (ESPECIALLY the head chicken!), and Z. Brown and R. Kelley played more.

Unforced errors (are you a baseball guy?) will get anyone more bench time than those who don't quite as much in any coaches system.

So, have you read Bill Bradleys book A Sense Of Where You Are? Some players do indeed have better court vision than others you know? It's a skill that can't be taught. Kinda like heighth.

Enjoyed catching up with you again. I always enjoy your original sequitors.

If you want to have a reasoned discussion, I'm all in. But the not-so-thinly-veiled insults are a bit childish. But I digress...

Evan's stat line vs. Northern Iowa by game:

vs. UNI: 1/5/14 - 8 minutes played, 0 points, 0/0 2PT, 0/0 3PT, 0 reb
@ UNI: 2/8/14 - 18 minutes played, 2 points, 1/1 2PT, 0/1 PT, 1 reb
@ UNI: 1/31/15 - 26 minutes played, 3 points, 0/0 2PT, 1/3 3PT, 2 reb
vs. UNI: 2/28/15 - 33 minutes played, 11 points, 1/2 2PT, 3/6 3PT, 4 reb (Hey, he had a good game here!)
@ UNI: 1/20/16 - 18 minutes played, 0 points, 0/1 2PT, 0/1 3PT, 2 reb
vs. UNI: 2/13/16 - 24 minutes played, 0 points, 0/1 2PT, 0/1 3PT, 5 reb
vs. UNI (Valley tournament): 25 minutes played, 0 points, 0/0 2PT, 0/4 3PT, 7 reb

So, Ben Jacobson is really glad he doesn't have to play against a guy who, in seven games against UNI all-time, has logged 152 minutes, shot 22% from 3, 40% from 2, and has 21 rebounds? If he really is, he's misappropriating his relief.

Evan's stat line vs. Utah:

12/3/14: 30 minutes played, 6 points, 0/1 2PT, 1/4 3PT, 3/4 FT, 9 reb
12/12/15: 23 minutes played, 6 points, 0/1 2PT, 2/8 3PT, 2 reb (WHY IN THE WORLD IS EVAN WESSEL, A CAREER 28.5% THREE POINT SHOOTER, TAKING 8 THREES IN A SINGLE GAME?)

Evan didn't even crack double digits in scoring once this year. There's an argument for Evan to be made, albeit not a compelling one. But you are correct in that it's more that he's a low risk player to roll out there in some regards (especially in the Valley) and he doesn't foul a whole lot.

But he's not a good three point shooter and he's 6'5" playing the 4 spot. So his limitations guarding guys who are 6'6"+ and athletic are much greater than someone like McDuffie. This was especially noticeable during the NCAA tournament, when Evan got in foul trouble and saw significantly reduced minutes against Vanderbilt and Arizona.

His game against Kansas was certainly an anomaly. But man I'm glad he got hot that game.

[Kel Varnsen]

Also, keep in mind that these arguments I'm making lead to us being BETTER next year than expected.

[shockmonster]

I hope that we can just let Evan go into the Sunset with good thoughts and not arguments. I think that MOST of us will AGREE that we are glad that he was a Shocker. As has been said many times, you cannot measure the positive effects of Evan's leadership and general play with statistics. The most important statistic for Evan was the number of minutes he played and if Gregg thought he had a great impact, I'm on board.

However, Evan is going on to hopefully, a successful business career and since statistics don't tell us the entire picture of his impact on the program, we need to end this subject to just WISHING HIM WELL in his future endeavors. I'm cautiously optimistic regarding this years Shocker team. I hope that we are as good as we have been in the past but this year is a new year and it will be challenging. At times, the team will be tested, and things will not be going smoothly. It is in these times that our fans will have to bring it and give the team a lift. Never the less, I have confidence in Gregg and the program he's built.

Good Luck to the Team, good luck to Evan and Go Shocks

[_kai_]

Or that Wamukota played most of his minutes with Ty Taylor, allowing for the highest Offensive Rebound Opportunity per Minute in the nation.

[im4wsu]

If you want to have a reasoned discussion, I'm all in. But the not-so-thinly-veiled insults are a bit childish. But I digress...

Evan's stat line vs. Northern Iowa by game:

vs. UNI: 1/5/14 - 8 minutes played, 0 points, 0/0 2PT, 0/0 3PT, 0 reb
@ UNI: 2/8/14 - 18 minutes played, 2 points, 1/1 2PT, 0/1 PT, 1 reb
@ UNI: 1/31/15 - 26 minutes played, 3 points, 0/0 2PT, 1/3 3PT, 2 reb
vs. UNI: 2/28/15 - 33 minutes played, 11 points, 1/2 2PT, 3/6 3PT, 4 reb (Hey, he had a good game here!)
@ UNI: 1/20/16 - 18 minutes played, 0 points, 0/1 2PT, 0/1 3PT, 2 reb
vs. UNI: 2/13/16 - 24 minutes played, 0 points, 0/1 2PT, 0/1 3PT, 5 reb
vs. UNI (Valley tournament): 25 minutes played, 0 points, 0/0 2PT, 0/4 3PT, 7 reb

So, Ben Jacobson is really glad he doesn't have to play against a guy who, in seven games against UNI all-time, has logged 152 minutes, shot 22% from 3, 40% from 2, and has 21 rebounds? If he really is, he's misappropriating his relief.

Evan's stat line vs. Utah:

12/3/14: 30 minutes played, 6 points, 0/1 2PT, 1/4 3PT, 3/4 FT, 9 reb
12/12/15: 23 minutes played, 6 points, 0/1 2PT, 2/8 3PT, 2 reb (WHY IN THE WORLD IS EVAN WESSEL, A CAREER 28.5% THREE POINT SHOOTER, TAKING 8 THREES IN A SINGLE GAME?)

Evan didn't even crack double digits in scoring once this year. There's an argument for Evan to be made, albeit not a compelling one. But you are correct in that it's more that he's a low risk player to roll out there in some regards (especially in the Valley) and he doesn't foul a whole lot.

But he's not a good three point shooter and he's 6'5" playing the 4 spot. So his limitations guarding guys who are 6'6"+ and athletic are much greater than someone like McDuffie. This was especially noticeable during the NCAA tournament, when Evan got in foul trouble and saw significantly reduced minutes against Vanderbilt and Arizona.

His game against Kansas was certainly an anomaly. But man I'm glad he got hot that game.

All that said, Evan was the coaches choice to start over all the other available options. So, I guess in a nutshell, you believe that the coach doesn't understand baslketball because, surely if he did, he wouldn't be playing this guy. Is that your contention?

[ShockingButTrue]

If you want to have a reasoned discussion, I'm all in. But the not-so-thinly-veiled insults are a bit childish. But I digress...

Evan's stat line vs. Northern Iowa by game:

vs. UNI: 1/5/14 - 8 minutes played, 0 points, 0/0 2PT, 0/0 3PT, 0 reb
@ UNI: 2/8/14 - 18 minutes played, 2 points, 1/1 2PT, 0/1 PT, 1 reb
@ UNI: 1/31/15 - 26 minutes played, 3 points, 0/0 2PT, 1/3 3PT, 2 reb
vs. UNI: 2/28/15 - 33 minutes played, 11 points, 1/2 2PT, 3/6 3PT, 4 reb (Hey, he had a good game here!)
@ UNI: 1/20/16 - 18 minutes played, 0 points, 0/1 2PT, 0/1 3PT, 2 reb
vs. UNI: 2/13/16 - 24 minutes played, 0 points, 0/1 2PT, 0/1 3PT, 5 reb
vs. UNI (Valley tournament): 25 minutes played, 0 points, 0/0 2PT, 0/4 3PT, 7 reb

So, Ben Jacobson is really glad he doesn't have to play against a guy who, in seven games against UNI all-time, has logged 152 minutes, shot 22% from 3, 40% from 2, and has 21 rebounds? If he really is, he's misappropriating his relief.

Evan's stat line vs. Utah:

12/3/14: 30 minutes played, 6 points, 0/1 2PT, 1/4 3PT, 3/4 FT, 9 reb
12/12/15: 23 minutes played, 6 points, 0/1 2PT, 2/8 3PT, 2 reb (WHY IN THE WORLD IS EVAN WESSEL, A CAREER 28.5% THREE POINT SHOOTER, TAKING 8 THREES IN A SINGLE GAME?)

Evan didn't even crack double digits in scoring once this year. There's an argument for Evan to be made, albeit not a compelling one. But you are correct in that it's more that he's a low risk player to roll out there in some regards (especially in the Valley) and he doesn't foul a whole lot.

But he's not a good three point shooter and he's 6'5" playing the 4 spot. So his limitations guarding guys who are 6'6"+ and athletic are much greater than someone like McDuffie. This was especially noticeable during the NCAA tournament, when Evan got in foul trouble and saw significantly reduced minutes against Vanderbilt and Arizona.

His game against Kansas was certainly an anomaly. But man I'm glad he got hot that game.

I'm guilty of being a little light-hearted for sure, but I don't think I'm being childish in my conviction that court vision is a natural skill which some players have and some don't. Any comment on court vision as a skill?


Yeah, 9 rebounds against a top 20 team who was supposed to kill us on the glass deserves a pretty childish response huh? As far as Jacobsen goes, I was specifically referring to the game against UNI last season, that was the last game of the season, for all the marbles. Pull up the stats for that one will 'ya? Remember I said PIVOTAL games? How'd the other 2 do?


You claim this discussion was about going forward. Said who? I stated I hope either Brown or Kelley can be capable of doing what Wessel did in most of our big games, but based on what I've "seen" I'm not holding my breath. Meaning, the next time we play a 2 seed in the tournament, and I hope it's the Chickens again, just to listen to all their fans say a mid-major could "Never" beat 'em :very_drunk: that Brown or Kelley can step up and be possibly THE key player that brings home the bacon. Are you saying they will? Based on what? Your 100 pos. per? I'm basing mine on air-balls, turnovers, & COURT VISION (or lack of).


And I don't need any convincing about McDuffie. He's already stepped against some good competition.


Thank you again Kel. It's always fun having a circular conversation with you (liked the Ute reference). I've missed them. Can't wait for the season to start!

[ShockingButTrue]

Also, keep in mind that these arguments I'm making lead to us being BETTER next year than expected.

Ohhhhh. My bad, I thought you were reasoning (huh?) that Brown/Kelley were better than Wessel, er, something like that (it kinda confused me).

They're already expected to be good next year. If they're even better than expected they'll be pretty good.

[ShockerPrez]

I dont think any player, based on statistics, should be hard to replace. No one put up gawdy numbers, iirc. So, to single out Wessel is just a bit unfair in my opinion. If Shamet matches Baker or FVVs numbers next year, does that mean they were replaced easily?

[ShockingButTrue]

[QUOTE=im4wsu;664051]All that said, Evan was the coaches choice to start over all the other available options. So, I guess in a nutshell, you believe that the coach doesn't understand baslketball because, surely if he did, he wouldn't be playing this guy. Is that your contention?[/QU

Coaches hate turnovers. The dribbling-of-your-foot variety especially!! Some fans can't comprehend that.

[ShockerFever]

If you want to have a reasoned discussion, I'm all in. But the not-so-thinly-veiled insults are a bit childish. But I digress...

Evan's stat line vs. Northern Iowa by game:

vs. UNI: 1/5/14 - 8 minutes played, 0 points, 0/0 2PT, 0/0 3PT, 0 reb
@ UNI: 2/8/14 - 18 minutes played, 2 points, 1/1 2PT, 0/1 PT, 1 reb
@ UNI: 1/31/15 - 26 minutes played, 3 points, 0/0 2PT, 1/3 3PT, 2 reb
vs. UNI: 2/28/15 - 33 minutes played, 11 points, 1/2 2PT, 3/6 3PT, 4 reb (Hey, he had a good game here!)
@ UNI: 1/20/16 - 18 minutes played, 0 points, 0/1 2PT, 0/1 3PT, 2 reb
vs. UNI: 2/13/16 - 24 minutes played, 0 points, 0/1 2PT, 0/1 3PT, 5 reb
vs. UNI (Valley tournament): 25 minutes played, 0 points, 0/0 2PT, 0/4 3PT, 7 reb

So, Ben Jacobson is really glad he doesn't have to play against a guy who, in seven games against UNI all-time, has logged 152 minutes, shot 22% from 3, 40% from 2, and has 21 rebounds? If he really is, he's misappropriating his relief.

Evan's stat line vs. Utah:

12/3/14: 30 minutes played, 6 points, 0/1 2PT, 1/4 3PT, 3/4 FT, 9 reb
12/12/15: 23 minutes played, 6 points, 0/1 2PT, 2/8 3PT, 2 reb (WHY IN THE WORLD IS EVAN WESSEL, A CAREER 28.5% THREE POINT SHOOTER, TAKING 8 THREES IN A SINGLE GAME?)

Evan didn't even crack double digits in scoring once this year. There's an argument for Evan to be made, albeit not a compelling one. But you are correct in that it's more that he's a low risk player to roll out there in some regards (especially in the Valley) and he doesn't foul a whole lot.

But he's not a good three point shooter and he's 6'5" playing the 4 spot. So his limitations guarding guys who are 6'6"+ and athletic are much greater than someone like McDuffie. This was especially noticeable during the NCAA tournament, when Evan got in foul trouble and saw significantly reduced minutes against Vanderbilt and Arizona.

His game against Kansas was certainly an anomaly. But man I'm glad he got hot that game.

What the hell was Marshall thinking giving him all those minutes?