Ty Taylor is transferring

[Topshock]

Please understand I'm 'not being negative to be negative'.
1) We pay our coach a lot of $$$ each year to evaluate talent. No coach is perfect, but when you seem to have continual problems in a particular area, as evidenced by recruiting players to a particular position (PG) then asking players who play a particular position to leave, it indicates to me that the underlying cause of the problem needs to be addressed so that our basketball program is not only not wasting scholarships, but also not wasting player's time.
2) HCGM is paid multi-millions of dollars per year. Maybe I'm being tough on him, but I would expect that he's a little more sophisticated than the players he is recruiting (since they're young men - not fully grown up emotionally), so I do not expect players he has recruited for a specific purpose in effect be fired from their jobs because they didn't fit. Rather, I expect HCGM to do a better job of evaluating talent and realizing when players don't fit into his system and which players do, so that we obtain the best players for our system.
3) Other teams with other coaches probably notice who is transferring out as well. Given our track record with shoot-first HS PG's, I expect that the metrics will be used against us in recruiting and could even be used, in general, negatively against us 'Marshall doesn't know how to recruit, why he recruited X, Y, and Z. He promised them lots of playing time, even though they didn't fit into his system and later told X, Y and Z they either needed to leave or sit at the end of the bench. I don't do things like that, I promise you that you will play if you sign with us.' If I'm not mistaken, a variant of this was employed by a number of coaches (most notably Arizona State) when we tried to recruit Willis.
4) Coach needs to TRY to be as transparent and fair with all his players. Coach put TT at the end of the bench in a hot minute after putting him in a position where he could not succeed. He also tolerated sub-optimal play from one of our seniors and it was really a head-scratching experience to watch that. I don't see a whole lot of difference between TT's character and EW's character. Both did what they were told, were polite andwere well-spoken. If we are going to make lineup changes because players aren't producing, why wasn't the same standard enforced across the board? I think EW should have been the first player coming off the bench, but I also think he should have been coming off the bench, especially in light of his dismal performance in Orlando (which is where TT cut his throat) as well as the fact that he was a senior who wasn't progressing in terms of production.

Bottom line is that if we are paying him top ten money, he needs to earn his money by being a little more careful who he recruits for a particular position and being consistent about what he expects from ALL players.

Really?? GM know's what he is doing. This is the way the program has been ran since he took the job and I for one don't have any complaints with the results. GM brings in the best players available every year usually to the point that we are over signed. He then keeps the best 13. Perhaps this wasn't as noticeable when the bottom of the roster was not very good, but the general plan has not changed.

[Art Bunch]

Please understand I'm 'not being negative to be negative'.
1) We pay our coach a lot of $$$ each year to evaluate talent. No coach is perfect, but when you seem to have continual problems in a particular area, as evidenced by recruiting players to a particular position (PG) then asking players who play a particular position to leave, it indicates to me that the underlying cause of the problem needs to be addressed so that our basketball program is not only not wasting scholarships, but also not wasting player's time.
2) HCGM is paid multi-millions of dollars per year. Maybe I'm being tough on him, but I would expect that he's a little more sophisticated than the players he is recruiting (since they're young men - not fully grown up emotionally), so I do not expect players he has recruited for a specific purpose in effect be fired from their jobs because they didn't fit. Rather, I expect HCGM to do a better job of evaluating talent and realizing when players don't fit into his system and which players do, so that we obtain the best players for our system.
3) Other teams with other coaches probably notice who is transferring out as well. Given our track record with shoot-first HS PG's, I expect that the metrics will be used against us in recruiting and could even be used, in general, negatively against us 'Marshall doesn't know how to recruit, why he recruited X, Y, and Z. He promised them lots of playing time, even though they didn't fit into his system and later told X, Y and Z they either needed to leave or sit at the end of the bench. I don't do things like that, I promise you that you will play if you sign with us.' If I'm not mistaken, a variant of this was employed by a number of coaches (most notably Arizona State) when we tried to recruit Willis.
4) Coach needs to TRY to be as transparent and fair with all his players. Coach put TT at the end of the bench in a hot minute after putting him in a position where he could not succeed. He also tolerated sub-optimal play from one of our seniors and it was really a head-scratching experience to watch that. I don't see a whole lot of difference between TT's character and EW's character. Both did what they were told, were polite andwere well-spoken. If we are going to make lineup changes because players aren't producing, why wasn't the same standard enforced across the board? I think EW should have been the first player coming off the bench, but I also think he should have been coming off the bench, especially in light of his dismal performance in Orlando (which is where TT cut his throat) as well as the fact that he was a senior who wasn't progressing in terms of production.

Bottom line is that if we are paying him top ten money, he needs to earn his money by being a little more careful who he recruits for a particular position and being consistent about what he expects from ALL players.

This is April Fools, right?

[jdshock]

Bottom line is that if we are paying him top ten money, he needs to earn his money by being a little more careful who he recruits for a particular position and being consistent about what he expects from ALL players.

HCGM is maybe the best guard coach in the entire country. The success he has had finding diamonds in the rough and turning them into premier point guards is incredible. I just don't understand your passion for this argument. I get that if we are talking about track records it makes some sense to bring up a struggle to recruit big guys. I just don't get acting like his track record with guards is poor.

I'll go further: if we have another pg or sg become an All-American in the next couple of years, I think you have to start thinking HCGM is one of the best guard developers of all time.

[Dan]

Of our last 4 point guards (Hannah, Ragland, Armstead and FVV) - 3 have been 1st team All Conference, while the other (MA) lead out team to a Final 4. I'd say the bar is pretty high regarding 3G's expectations for his PG. Better to cut bait early then to drag the guys out that aren't at that level. This year will be telling as to whether we have the next all Valley level player, but my guess is that he's already on the team.

[Ricardo del Rio]

I might slightly disagree. Guys like Hannah, Ragland, and Armstead were great assets to our program and were really not pass-first point guards. It does seem like he's trying to recruit a certain mold, but I don't think it's to test it out and see if it works. My guess is he sees that role as especially valuable when you already have a more pass-oriented point guard. It worked out a few times; it hasn't worked out lately.

I disagree with you about Armstead. He did not mind firing it up.

I will never forget his shooting performance in the Final 4. He was 1-10. As I recall, VV was 0-4. Together they were 1-14. I may be off a tick or two in my recall.

[Art Bunch]

No one, but no one should be surprised that Ty is transferring. As Shoxlax and I have stated multiple times on this forum, Marshall has been very consistent in giving perimeter players 1 year on the court to prove they should stay in the program. We have seen this pattern over and over and over again. With Henderson, it was the fact that he couldn't run the set plays and get the offense started, with Ri'an it was his poor defense and inability to hit wide open shots. With Ty it wasn't that he missed a bunch of shots, it was that he took a bunch of terrible shots. This showed he didn't value possessions and didn't understand the number one job of a point guard. He is a good kid but he didn't buy in to what Coach is teaching. He wasn't getting it.

Next season, if any of the first year guys that are not redshirts, are unable to show that they have what it takes to be a starter in this program, then you can bet your house they will be transferring.

Players that get it, stay. Players that don't, transfer out. Thankfully we don't require that standard for people who post on this message board.

[Cdizzle]

Clevin Hannah. 2009 MVC NOY, 2010 MVC 1st Team
Joe Ragland. 2012 MVC 1st Team
Malcolm Armstead. 2013 MVC HM, MVC All-Newcomer
Fred VanVleet. 2014-2016 MVC 1st Team, 2014/2016 MVC POY, multiple All-American lists


That's WSU's starting PGs the last 8 years.


1. #perspective
2. That means in 6 of the last 7 seasons, WSU has had an All-Conference Starting PG. In 5 of the last 7 seasons, WSU has had a 1st Team All-Conference PG. In 2 of the last 3 seasons, WSU has had a PG that won the conference Player of the Year Award. The team's least decorated PG in the last 8 years played PG in the Final Four.
3. If we keep this coach, the trend line would indicate we will watch adequate PG play.
4. I can't believe we have to do this every year.
5. This program is at a point that some pretty darn good players sign on, don't quite fit into everything that's going on, and decide to move on to better their situation. Nothing wrong with that at all. If you sign 13 mid to high-level D1 players, somebody is going to want to move on and get more playing time.
6. I still can't believe we have to do this every year.
7. People always seem to forget about D.J. Bowles.
8. It bottles my mind that we still have to do this every year.

[jdshock]

I disagree with you about Armstead. He did not mind firing it up.

Maybe I'm not understanding, but I think that's exactly what he's saying. Those guys weren't pass first point guards but were still huge benefits to the team.

[Aargh]

HCGM is maybe the best guard coach in the entire country.

One might think that the best guard coach in the entire country wouldn't have 3 washouts in a row while recruiting and developing point guards.

It would be better to have a poll on this board about next year's starting PG because of several competing for the starting spot rather than have such a poll because someone has to play the position and there are no obvious choices on the roster.

[Art Bunch]

One might think that the best guard coach in the entire country wouldn't have 3 washouts in a row while recruiting and developing point guards.

It would be better to have a poll on this board about next year's starting PG because of several competing for the starting spot rather than have such a poll because someone has to play the position and there are no obvious choices on the roster.

Confirmed, it is April Fools Day.

[choida]

Please understand I'm 'not being negative to be negative'.
1) We pay our coach a lot of $$$ each year to evaluate talent. No coach is perfect, but when you seem to have continual problems in a particular area, as evidenced by recruiting players to a particular position (PG) then asking players who play a particular position to leave, it indicates to me that the underlying cause of the problem needs to be addressed so that our basketball program is not only not wasting scholarships, but also not wasting player's time.
2) HCGM is paid multi-millions of dollars per year. Maybe I'm being tough on him, but I would expect that he's a little more sophisticated than the players he is recruiting (since they're young men - not fully grown up emotionally), so I do not expect players he has recruited for a specific purpose in effect be fired from their jobs because they didn't fit. Rather, I expect HCGM to do a better job of evaluating talent and realizing when players don't fit into his system and which players do, so that we obtain the best players for our system.
3) Other teams with other coaches probably notice who is transferring out as well. Given our track record with shoot-first HS PG's, I expect that the metrics will be used against us in recruiting and could even be used, in general, negatively against us 'Marshall doesn't know how to recruit, why he recruited X, Y, and Z. He promised them lots of playing time, even though they didn't fit into his system and later told X, Y and Z they either needed to leave or sit at the end of the bench. I don't do things like that, I promise you that you will play if you sign with us.' If I'm not mistaken, a variant of this was employed by a number of coaches (most notably Arizona State) when we tried to recruit Willis.
4) Coach needs to TRY to be as transparent and fair with all his players. Coach put TT at the end of the bench in a hot minute after putting him in a position where he could not succeed. He also tolerated sub-optimal play from one of our seniors and it was really a head-scratching experience to watch that. I don't see a whole lot of difference between TT's character and EW's character. Both did what they were told, were polite andwere well-spoken. If we are going to make lineup changes because players aren't producing, why wasn't the same standard enforced across the board? I think EW should have been the first player coming off the bench, but I also think he should have been coming off the bench, especially in light of his dismal performance in Orlando (which is where TT cut his throat) as well as the fact that he was a senior who wasn't progressing in terms of production.

Bottom line is that if we are paying him top ten money, he needs to earn his money by being a little more careful who he recruits for a particular position and being consistent about what he expects from ALL players.

It's Marshalls job to bring in talent and then once they are on board, evaluate that talent and hope to see that it works... You can't just see if a player will fit off the back... Gotta let the process of evaluating take it's course to see if a player can get better within you're system.

[tempshock]

Taylor is going to be a really good player for some program. This was just a horrible fit. Marshall is a control freak, and Taylor was a Freshman thrown into the fire when FVV was injured. By putting him in that tough situation in Orlando, Marshall ended up losing confidence in him. But beyond that, there had to be something going on under the surface. He wasn't even getting much playing time in blowouts, instead Marshall went to a walk-on much of the time. Orlando was a no win situation for Ty. WSU was playing against high D1 programs with a lot of size, and there was very little inside support in those games. It's not like WSU was getting blown out in those games, and none of those teams were pushovers.

The other point I've mentioned before is that Taylor was never given the chance to play with Fred. He was perfectly capable of playing the two, and WSU could have used him in that role in close games. This kid is going to have a really good career in the right program. He will sit a year and learn somebody's system, and then be a very mature Sophomore. He is really a gifted athlete, who will benefit from a less restrictive system.

[choida]

Taylor is going to be a really good player for some program. This was just a horrible fit. Marshall is a control freak, and Taylor was a Freshman thrown into the fire when FVV was injured. By putting him in that tough situation in Orlando, Marshall ended up losing confidence in him. But beyond that, there had to be something going on under the surface. He wasn't even getting much playing time in blowouts, instead Marshall went to a walk-on much of the time. Orlando was a no win situation for Ty. WSU was playing against high D1 programs with a lot of size, and there was very little inside support in those games. It's not like WSU was getting blown out in those games, and none of those teams were pushovers.

The other point I've mentioned before is that Taylor was never given the chance to play with Fred. He was perfectly capable of playing the two, and WSU could have used him in that role in close games. This kid is going to have a really good career in the right program. He will sit a year and learn somebody's system, and then be a very mature Sophomore. He is really a gifted athlete, who will benefit from a less restrictive system. I see Arkansas just lost a guard to transfer. I believe he would be a great fit there, and I believe Anderson also had an interest in Ty at one point. That would be a really good landing spot for him. While I can't see it happening (given KU's recruitment of elite guards), Bill Self's love for combo guards who can penetrate would make him a great fit there, as well. He could sit this year and the jump in with Graham when Mason graduates after next season.

I believe he will have some great options. I seem to recall seeing a comment from his prep coach that if he hadn't commited early last year, he could have named his school.

Eight years ago Marshall would have kept taylor, he gets paid top ten money, so he feels the pressure to keep this program n good shape, therefore he has to cut the fat, sometimes good fat gets trimmed, but he is just trying to keep the program lean.

[shocka khan]

Eight years ago Marshall would have kept taylor, he gets paid top ten money, so he feels the pressure to keep this program n good shape, therefore he has to cut the fat, sometimes good fat gets trimmed, but he is just trying to keep the program lean.

Yeah, that's the ticket. It was the players he recruited that are the problem. Who cares if we pay him $3.5 M plus to recruit players who don't fit into the system. If the players who he recruited weren't so dumb, they never would have signed in the first place, amiright?

PS, I would like to know of the people who seem to think this is perfectly OK, why EW wasn't sitting a little more on the bench a little quicker when we had MM who, as a freshman, only was Valley Freshman of the Year? Why was it OK to play EW when he wasn't producing and OK to bench TT when he wasn't producing? Isn't that a double standard?

[jdshock]

Yeah, that's the ticket. It was the players he recruited that are the problem. Who cares if we pay him $3.5 M plus to recruit players who don't fit into the system. If the players who he recruited weren't so dumb, they never would have signed in the first place, amiright?

PS, I would like to know of the people who seem to think this is perfectly OK, why EW wasn't sitting a little more on the bench a little quicker when we had MM who, as a freshman, only was Valley Freshman of the Year? Why was it OK to play EW when he wasn't producing and OK to bench TT when he wasn't producing? Isn't that a double standard?

Your logic would be nearly impeccable if we only played on one end of the floor.