Rafters

[jdshock]

So now your hero's are adulterers? Still want them in the rafters?

In this hypothetical they were the ones adulterated with, not the adulterators, right? Slightly more interesting, but still a slam dunk in favor of retirement.

[Topshock]

In this hypothetical they were the ones adulterated with, not the adulterators, right? Slightly more interesting, but still a slam dunk in favor of retirement.

Depends on what you are retiring from I guess!

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Ron Baker started in 13 NCAA Tournament games throughout his career, accumulating 156 total points! During the regular season he was 1st team all MVC 3 years, only missing out his Freshman year due to injury.

Ron should be a lock for the rafters, and I would argue Fred was even better than Ron.

I see no reason there should need to be any additional discussion on those two.

[chitown_shocker]

Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. Even if you win the pigeon is just going to knock over all the pieces, **** all over the board and then strut around like he won.

[Topshock]

Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. Even if you win the pigeon is just going to knock over all the pieces, **** all over the board and then strut around like he won.

Only idiots don't want to have discussions.

[Shock Top]

Discussing which players would do better with others players/teams is like asking who would be a better coach with each other's players; Turgeon or Marshall.

I think we can all agree Marshall is the superior coach.

The fact is, Ron and Fred DID achieve all the great team accolades and the others DIDN'T. They may have played with better players, but those players were also better for playing WITH Fred and Ron.

They weren't scrubs either. As others have pointed out, their individual accolades are pretty great as well. Sure they got to play with some other good players, but THEY still have to make all the right passes, get all the steals, grab all the rebounds, etc. All that didn't just happen by magic because they were part of good teams.

Fred. Ron. Rafters. Period. (Same for Cle)

[Shock Top]

Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. Even if you win the pigeon is just going to knock over all the pieces, **** all over the board and then strut around like he won.

Pigeon-**** takes Queen C4

[ShockerFever]

"your heroes"?

I'm perplexed by this statement and I think it shed some light on the poster. Aren't they your heroes too? That statement almost sounded like it was made by a fan outside the fanbase.

This has now turned from a discussion of Ron and Fred being in the rafters (a stupid one at that) to just a full on trash fest on the dudes.

Seriously, you're either a troll or a complete, moronic douchecanoe.

[Topshock]

Discussing which players would do better with others players/teams is like asking who would be a better coach with each other's players; Turgeon or Marshall.

I think we can all agree Marshall is the superior coach.

The fact is, Ron and Fred DID achieve all the great team accolades and the others DIDN'T. They may have played with better players, but those players were also better for playing WITH Fred and Ron.


They weren't scrubs either. As others have pointed out, their individual accolades are pretty great as well. Sure they got to play with some other good players, but THEY still have to make all the right passes, get all the steals, grab all the rebounds, etc. All that didn't just happen by magic because they were part of good teams.

Fred. Ron. Rafters. Period. (Same for Cle)

I agree with all of that except I think it is just a really close call for all three on retirement.

[chitown_shocker]

Only idiots don't want to have discussions.

Why should I repeat the salient points outlined by others and ignored by you? So you can ignore me too?

Anybody who doesn't think Ron and Fred both belong among the All-Time shocker great is an idiot. There is no discussion here.

Statistically they rank toward the top in multiple categories. They did this while sharing time with each other and Cle who is probably the third guy on the list I would put up there.

They were recognized to be the best in the country both have AA honors.

They were leaders on the most successful Shocker run of all time.

They were here four years.

They are likely to play at some capacity at the next level (Although NBA career shouldn't have any bearing on a college award).

Its not one or two of these attributes that makes them unique - it's the entire resumé.

I can't believe I even engaged in this "discussion." Time for lunch.

[Topshock]

"your heroes"?

I'm perplexed by this statement and I think it shed some light on the poster. Aren't they your heroes too? That statement almost sounded like it was made by a fan outside the fanbase.

This has now turned from a discussion of Ron and Fred being in the rafters (a stupid one at that) to just a full on trash fest on the dudes.

Seriously, you're either a troll or a complete, moronic douchecanoe.

No player has ever risen to "hero" status for me. They are just basketball players.

[ShockerFever]

No player has ever risen to "hero" status for me. They are just basketball players.

I didn't drop the H word. You did. And besides, I'm more concerned with the pronoun that proceeded it.

You're now just camped in this thread, fighting a losing battle to apparently the bitter end.

[Dan]

Fred is the best point guard to have ever played for WSU. He will have his jersey retired and I will anxiously await some of our "fans" to publicly protest the ceremony.

[im4wsu]

The All-American criteria, IMHO, has served its time and times change. In 1965, there were 182 teams in 18 conferences; in 2015-16, there are 351 teams in 32 conferences. In 1965, there were 24 NCAA tournament teams; in 2016, there were 68. Things are different today. The UPI poll is discontinued, as is the Helms Foundation. Everybody and their brother has an All-American team they spout. What would be classified as the "consensus" polls today? The AP is consistent and the USAToday Coaches poll sucks in other respects, so shoulr their AA team be recognized?

I wonder what the jerseys in the rafters are intended to represent. Is it the recognition and contribution to college basketball? Is it the performance level and contribution to Wichita State basketball and the university in general? Is it basketball only? Is Fred performed any better or worse at Wichita State because there are guys like Hield, Dunn, Trimble, Ferrell who are grabbing more national attention due to their scoring? What if Fred played in a year where the other PGs were injured and he was not? Would that make him better? Or more worthy of having his jersey retired at WSU?

I think there should be some objective measures that are known in advance that are not totally dependent on statistics, not totally dependent on comparisons to others on a national basis, and are consistently applied across the years. Tough task. Statistics and conference and even national recognition can certainly be a part of it, but not the totality of it. Statistics is tough because guards are going to contribute in ways that forwards and centers do not, and vice versa. So counting the number of categories a player is in the top ten does not lend itself to comparisons across the different playing positions.

Maybe statistical performance should make up 50%; 25% for Conference recognition; 15% subjective eyeball test and 10% for national recognition. As an example, points for 1st team all-conference; 2nd team all-conference; honorable mention all conference; defensive team ; newcomer team; freshmen team with bonus points for POY and FOY and NOY. For statistics, perhaps points for rankings each year in the various statistical categories and for the final career rankings (these should be on a per minute basis or some other means to recognize the difference between two-year, three-year and four-year players). Honorable mention AA would be worth points equivalent to double the 1st team all-conference points. The points in each category would then be weighted by the 50%, 25%, 15% and 10% to arrive at a total number. If that equals or esceeds the predetermined minimum, the player would have his jersey retired. In order to be fair, the points in each of the categories other than "eyeball test" should be divided by the number of seasons eligible.

[1972Shocker]

It seems that the players in the rafter are intended only to be All-Americans. What actually constitutes being an All-American perhaps needs to be refined and clarified. I would agree that honorable mention AA should not be adequate to qualify. Essentially, the players in the rafters are our best players as deemed by people outside of Shocker Nation.

The Shocker Hall of Fame then becomes the place of honor for those athletes deemed worthy (with broader and less stringent criteria and allowing for some subjectivity) by Shocker supporters.

If they would just declare that is what it is it should eliminate most of the controversy. Only qualified All-Americans (as defined) in the rafters. All Shocker greats deemed worthy in the Hall of Fame.