Rafters

[Topshock]

I will say, even if I knew with 100% certainty (due to my alternate reality hypothesis testing machine) that Jason Perez would have achieved everything Ron Baker did if he played in Ron's place the last 4 years, the fact of the matter is that Ron DID achieve those things (Final 4, Sweet 16, etc.) and Jason only HYPOTHETICALLY would have. For these awards, reality should matter. Tough luck for guys like Jason.

Give me Fred and Ron in the rafters, Perez "merely" in the HOF.

Also, Paul Miller in the rafters is a joke. He only averaged 20, 22, and 23 mins/gm his Freshman through Junior years with trips to the NIT. Had it not been for the awful teams fresh in all our minds from the 90s and early 00s, Paul's Freshmen through Junior years wouldn't have been all that memorable.

Even as a senior, Paul only played 28 mins/gm. He helped lead WSU to a 7 seed and a Sweet 16... a fine year, but a fairly weak honorable mention AA IMO. I just can't believe anyone would think he belongs in any list of the top 10 Shockers of all time. You gotta get 15-20 names up there before Paul gets into the rafters.

I don't think anyone suggested that. I believe he was used as an example as to why some other players should not be immediately put in the rafters as perhaps also being fairly weak honorable mention AA.

[12eagle]

I think there needs to be more discussion on Cleanthony as he was the best player on the two best shocker teams of all time. He was a consensus 2nd team all american. We just need to wait and see what happens to the program over the next 5 years. It is very possible we will have players just as good as Fred and Ron.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I don't think anyone suggested that. I believe he was used as an example as to why some other players should not be immediately put in the rafters as perhaps also being fairly weak honorable mention AA.

Maybe so. I guess it was comments like this one (below) that spurred my comments. Sure, Paul passes the HM AA criteria, but it seems blatantly obvious that he would be lowering the bar in terms of general worthiness. No one is arguing all HM AA's should be in the rafters, and clearly Ron and Fred had numerous other noteworthy accomplishments to distinguish themselves from Paul.

How is Paul lowering the bar fairly significantly? He was Honorable Mention AA just like Baker.

Paul wouldn't be lowering the bar because of his HM AA status. He would be lowering the bar because that status, and 1 single Sweet 16, are ALL he has.

[ShockdaWorld]

I'm starting to understand some of JH4P's frustrations right now. It's impossible to use stats to argue FOR ones position, and then to dismiss stats as they relate to any argument AGAINST said position. I do agree that we may have players just as good as Fred and Ron in the next 5 years. If so, we will have them BECAUSE of what Fred and Ron (along with Cle and some others) have done for this program. Also, Warren Armstrong keeps being brought up as a measuring stick for some reason, and I don't think I've seen anyone say they thought he shouldn't be up there too.

[Topshock]

Got back late to this thread, so I'm just asking? You may have said it earlier, but on #3 and #4, what exactly would be changed/lowered?

Not exactly sure how the AA list worked in Littleton's time. Stallworth, Carr, and McDaniel were all consensus 1st team AA. Livingston was Honorable Mention and on at least one 1st team AA list. All four of the later were extremely highly regarded nationally. All four were high 1st round draft picks and went on to live up to the hype with long NBA careers.

[Cdizzle]

Armstrong So.-Sr. APG: 5.5
VanVleet So.-Sr. APG: 5.4

[Steeleshocker]

Ron scored a lot of points in our tournament when we lacked Fred, Conner, and Landry. Don't assume he wouldn't put up the same number of points as Perez because "defenses were keyed on him"

Winning matters.

[ShockerFever]

Did Ron and Fred sleep with 12eagle and topshock's wives or something?

[Shoxthemonkey]

^^^^ No, they don't want all the extra laundry hanging from the rafters to block the view from their skybox.

[Topshock]

Ron scored a lot of points in our tournament when we lacked Fred, Conner, and Landry. Don't assume he wouldn't put up the same number of points as Perez because "defenses were keyed on him"

Winning matters.

And by to the same token don't assume Perez wouldn't have won just as much as Bake if he had been on those teams.

[Kel Varnsen]

It's always a bad idea to have substantive and factual discussions about something. It's always much easier to just make emotional decisions.

I've found this to be true. The restraining orders take care of themselves after a few years.

[Topshock]

Did Ron and Fred sleep with 12eagle and topshock's wives or something?

^^^^ No, they don't want all the extra laundry hanging from the rafters to block the view from their skybox.

Wow, you two are making yourselves look so credible and intelligent!

[ShockerFever]

Wow, you two are making yourselves look so credible and intelligent!

I take that as a yes?

[Cdizzle]

And by to the same token don't assume Perez wouldn't have won just as much as Bake if he had been on those teams.

But. That didn't happen. All we are left with is what did happen. Which is the greatest run in Wichita State basketball history, by a lot. Ron Baker played on that team. Maybe it was all the team's fault. We'll never know.

I agree with not making knee-jerk reactions. And I don't think jerseys should be retired until some years after an individual's career is over. But this argument is silly on just about every level. If you would like to have an interesting discussion, we could talk about Cleanthony Early.

[Topshock]

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