Rafters

[Cdizzle]

Knee-jerk would have been doing it after the F4 run.

Arguing against it now is just an unnecessary buzzkill.

[ShockdaWorld]

You're asking all the wrong questions. The real question is how many points would Baker have scored as a part of that 2000 team. And how many points would Perez have scored on the 2015 team. These are the only things that matter when considering a players talent. Everything else is 100% attributable to teammates, coaching, and opposition. Winning is anecdotal.

Ron would've scored more than he did in 2015, because he would've NEEDED to. Jason would've scored less than he did in 2000, because he would've NOT NEEDED to. Both team first guys that did what was necessary. I find it funny that he keeps ignoring my FACTS about FVV though. :)


Oops...I guess it was the other guy asking for facts.

[wsushox1]

I want to apologize for starting this thread.

[Topshock]

Ron would've scored more than he did in 2015, because he would've NEEDED to. Jason would've scored less than he did in 2000, because he would've NOT NEEDED to. Both team first guys that did what was necessary. I find it funny that he keeps ignoring my FACTS about FVV though. :)


Oops...I guess it was the other guy asking for facts.

Of course the other side of that is since Perez was the only scoring option, all of the defenses were keyed on him. He didn't have Early and Van Vleet to spread the defense.

[12eagle]

I don't think they won all those games by themselves that is a team award and those banners have already been hung. Ron Baker never had a single season where he ranked in the all time top 10 in any statistical category except 3pt shots made. Yes there is a lot more than points but also remember that there are a lot more games played now than in the past. Fred played 29 more games than Carr and 63 more games than Warren Armstrong. Armstrong averaged more assist per game than Fred given anywhere close to the same number of opportunities he would be our all time assist leader. Fred and Ron were very good over a period of 4 years but never great which is why they were never 1st team all Americans and were left off the majority of all american teams.

[Topshock]

I want to apologize for starting this thread.

It's always a bad idea to have substantive and factual discussions about something. It's always much easier to just make emotional decisions.

[ShockdaWorld]

Of course the other side of that is since Perez was the only scoring option, all of the defenses were keyed on him. He didn't have Early and Van Vleet to spread the defense.

And the other side of this is that Perez may not have been much of a scoring option with Early and VanVleet handling a majority of the scoring. Too many what-ifs to try that argument. It's a no win for anyone.

[12eagle]

As far as Valley Player of the year awards i think it is safe to say those things come a little easier now than they did in the past. Another point is Warren Armstrong, Carr , Livingston, and every player before 1986 played with no shot clock thus limiting the number of possessions that they could collect stats. Where you rank all time on a schools stat list isn't the best gage of how good a player was relative to past players. Per game averages and were do they rank on the majority of all american teams is a much more fair way to determine. But as someone else has said if Coach Marshall wants them retired then lets do it.

[ShockdaWorld]

OK...so we've got two guys that don't think they should be in the rafters and an overwhelming majority that believes they should be. I'm not going to be the one that gets to make that decision, but I'm extremely glad that those two outliers won't be either.

[Topshock]

OK...so we've got two guys that don't think they should be in the rafters and an overwhelming majority that believes they should be. I'm not going to be the one that gets to make that decision, but I'm extremely glad that those two outliers won't be either.

What I have said is:

1 There needs to be waiting period to take the emotion out of it.

2 Actual facts and stats should be discussed.

3 At the very least, the retired number criteria will be changed forever if they are retired

4 Very likely the criteria will not just be changed but lowered should these numbers be retired

5 All of this should be thought about long and hard before it happens

[jdshock]

Another point is Warren Armstrong, Carr , Livingston, and every player before 1986 played with no shot clock thus limiting the number of possessions that they could collect stats.

Is your newest argument really that this year's Wichita State team was more uptempo than those teams?

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I will say, even if I knew with 100% certainty (due to my alternate reality hypothesis testing machine) that Jason Perez would have achieved everything Ron Baker did if he played in Ron's place the last 4 years, the fact of the matter is that Ron DID achieve those things (Final 4, Sweet 16, etc.) and Jason only HYPOTHETICALLY would have. For these awards, reality should matter. Tough luck for guys like Jason.

Give me Fred and Ron in the rafters, Perez "merely" in the HOF.

Also, Paul Miller in the rafters is a joke. He only averaged 20, 22, and 23 mins/gm his Freshman through Junior years with trips to the NIT. Had it not been for the awful teams fresh in all our minds from the 90s and early 00s, Paul's Freshmen through Junior years wouldn't have been all that memorable. Look at all of Shocker history and those seasons were ordinary.

Even as a senior, Paul only played 28 mins/gm. He helped lead WSU to a 7 seed and a Sweet 16... a fine year, but a fairly weak honorable mention AA IMO. I just can't believe anyone would think he belongs in any list of the top 10 Shockers of all time. You gotta get 15-20 names up there before Paul gets into the rafters.

[12eagle]

No to the people who say He is our all time leader in assist so he should automatically have his number retired i'm saying that he played in 63 more games than Warren Armstrong who has a higher per game ast. average than Fred. Also making the point that stats now are different than stats in the past due to a variety of reasons.

[ShockTalk]

What I have said is:

1 There needs to be waiting period to take the emotion out of it.

2 Actual facts and stats should be discussed.

3 At the very least, the retired number criteria will be changed forever if they are retired

4 Very likely the criteria will not just be changed but lowered should these numbers be retired

5 All of this should be thought about long and hard before it happens

Got back late to this thread, so I'm just asking? You may have said it earlier, but on #3 and #4, what exactly would be changed/lowered?

[pinstripers]

I dunno what the criteria is, but always thought that Warren Armstrong belonged up there. Fred and Ron will go up someday (hopefully together). I don't think anybody else is worthy.