Rafters

[Topshock]

No, it is not. It is an indication of risk/reward assessments of billion dollar franchises.

When Carr, Levingston and McDaniel entered the draft, where a player was drafted, was an indication or their college performance. At that time it was rare for a player to leave college early and if they did, like Levingston it was after their Junior year.

[Cdizzle]

You don't think Jason Perez would have won big if he had been on the teams that Baker was on?

Perhaps so. Unfortunately for Perez that didn't happen.

[12eagle]

Van Vleet and Baker were not near as dominant nor did they stand out individually as much as X and Carr did. Carr averaged 22.6 PPG and 6.9 Reb as a sr, X Leb the nation in scoring and reb as a SR., Even cliff who is the weakest number up there averaged 18.5 and 11.4 during his best shocker year. Bakers and van vleets stats do not add up. They are shocker hall of famers and that is a great honor. They had the best collection of teammates ever assembled in shocker history. If you use Bob Lutz list of top 100 players since 1950 Baker and Van Vleet have played with 6 other top 100 players besides themselves. That is a number the may grow if Mcduffie or someone else goes on to have a great career. Putting number in the rafters is an individual award. Also when your only argument is because I said so, sarcasm, and to attack someones shocker fanhood then you have no argument at all. Please give me facts to back up your stance.

[Cdizzle]

For the 9 billionth time, there is more to basketball than points per game.

[ShockdaWorld]

Van Vleet and Baker were not near as dominant nor did they stand out individually as much as X and Carr did. Carr averaged 22.6 PPG and 6.9 Reb as a sr, X Leb the nation in scoring and reb as a SR., Even cliff who is the weakest number up there averaged 18.5 and 11.4 during his best shocker year. Bakers and van vleets stats do not add up. They are shocker hall of famers and that is a great honor. They had the best collection of teammates ever assembled in shocker history. If you use Bob Lutz list of top 100 players since 1950 Baker and Van Vleet have played with 6 other top 100 players besides themselves. That is a number the may grow if Mcduffie or someone else goes on to have a great career. Putting number in the rafters is an individual award. Also when your only argument is because I said so, sarcasm, and to attack someones shocker fanhood then you have no argument at all. Please give me facts to back up your stance.

Are most steals all time, most assists all time, best assist to turnover ratio all time, tied for most wins all time not facts? Because I've already said that.

These facts are about a point guard, and as far as I'm concerned, I'll take steals and assists over points and rebounds from that position all day, every day.

Almost forgot, two time MVC player of the year in, and 3 time first team all conference.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

I can't believe this is even a debate. Seriously, are we really debating this??!!

[Kel Varnsen]

@Jamar Howard 4 President: and I can't wait until True Shooting %, Rebound %, Assist Rate, Turnover Rate, and Real Plus Minus become criteria.

[Cdizzle]

Jamar and I can't wait until True Shooting %, Rebound %, Assist Rate, Turnover Rate, and Real Plus Minus become criteria.

Until then, just wait it out on the sidelines. Us numbers noobz can handle ppg comparisons.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

You don't think Jason Perez would have won big if he had been on the teams that Baker was on?

If I had the ability to do so, I would love to replay the 99-00 season with Ron Baker in place of Jason Perez. Do they go 12-17 again? Better? Worse?

Same for the '14-'15 season (since the team was healthier than this year) with Jason instead of Ron. Would they go 30-5 and reach the Sweet 16? Better? Worse?

Those types of things are really fascinating to think about. Who knows just how much of our lasting impressions of players has to do with the situations they inherited.

[ShockerFever]

I think there's a few people that are firmly entrenched in the past.

Seriously, if two of the most iconic players in WSU history who led to undeniably the GREATEST era in Shocker history aren't worthy of number/jersey retirement, then you might as well take down the rest of the rafters as they will go unused.

[Cdizzle]

If I had the ability to do so, I would love to replay the 99-00 season with Ron Baker in place of Jason Perez. Do they go 12-17 again? Better? Worse?

Same for the '14-'15 season (since the team was healthier than this year) with Jason instead of Ron. Would they go 30-5 and reach the Sweet 16? Better? Worse?

Those types of things are really fascinating to think about. Who knows just how much of our lasting impressions of players has to do with the situations they inherited.

You're asking all the wrong questions. The real question is how many points would Baker have scored as a part of that 2000 team. And how many points would Perez have scored on the 2015 team. These are the only things that matter when considering a players talent. Everything else is 100% attributable to teammates, coaching, and opposition. Winning is anecdotal.

[Topshock]

If I had the ability to do so, I would love to replay the 99-00 season with Ron Baker in place of Jason Perez. Do they go 12-17 again? Better? Worse?

Same for the '14-'15 season (since the team was healthier than this year) with Jason instead of Ron. Would they go 30-5 and reach the Sweet 16? Better? Worse?

Those types of things are really fascinating to think about. Who knows just how much of our lasting impressions of players has to do with the situations they inherited.

Exactly, my entire goal. Make people think about these these things from an historical perspective and not just make knee jerk suggestions that we start retiring numbers.

[Topshock]

You're asking all the wrong questions. The real question is how many points would Baker have scored as a part of that 2000 team. And how many points would Perez have scored on the 2015 team. These are the only things that matter when considering a players talent. Everything else is 100% attributable to teammates, coaching, and opposition. Winning is anecdotal.

It is also interesting to compare the career stats of Jason Perez and Ron Baker. Very similar, with Perez getting the edge.

Perez has higher FG%, 3pt FG%, more steals, and more rebounds. Baker has higher 2pt FG%, free throw %, and more blocks.

Both great players. Both Hall of Famers.

[ShockerFever]

Exactly, my entire goal. Make people think about these these things from an historical perspective and not just make knee jerk suggestions that we start retiring numbers.

I dunno how you can get more historical than what those two have done.

[Topshock]

I dunno how you can get more historical than what those two have done.

It has been a historical run by Shocker teams the last few years, that is true. We are talking individual performances here.