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No more LeFred (the lesson of Armstead)

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  • No more LeFred (the lesson of Armstead)

    I'm not sure this really deserves a thread of its own, because I don't know that anyone really cares about LeFred (after LeBron, of course), my own nickname I coined for FVV earlier this season when his critical importance to this year's Shocks became painfully apparent. It certainly hasn't caught on, so it's hard to imagine anyone missing it. But more important, it occurred to me after WSU's latest unsuccessful grindfest against Northern Iowa that calling him LeFred actually highlights the worst aspect of VanVleet's play this year, which has been trying to be Superman -- to do too much.

    Maybe he's still trying to prove a point about being left off the PanAm team, maybe he doesn't have enough faith in his younger teammates, who knows? But what we do know is that WSU's three losses to Valley opponents -- their three lowest scoring outputs of the year, and three of only four times they've been under 60 all season -- have some things in common. One has been frightful three point shooting, to be sure. But is that a cause or a symptom -- a symptom of general stagnation on offense as movement has slowed, dribbling has picked up, and the ball has tended to get stuck, occasionally in the hands of Baker but more often in the hands of FVV as he's tried to be LeFred and take over the game? How many of us, me included, have lamented this new tendency to try to win games himself occasionally instead of making his teammates better so the games can be won together?

    So I'm ditching the nickname and hoping not to see that persona any more as the Shocks try to get back to one more Final Four, because I believe that persona has become increasingly counterproductive. Which gets me to the lesson of Armstead. When Malcolm was a senior, he was WSU's unquestioned leader and capable of taking over games. But as he watched the team develop in practice, he also started lobbying Marshall for the new kid who was supposed to be his backup, FVV, to play more and play along with him, because Malcolm trusted him to help give WSU its best combination and chance to win. In tournament play, he also was willing to let new guys like Fred and Ron take over the spotlight down the stretch against Gonzaga, or Tekele Cotton launch the killer three against Ohio State that put WSU into the Final Four. And sadly, once WSU arrived, one of the things that sabotaged them against Louisville was Armstead's tough game (1-10 from the field, 0-5 from three) as he tried to do too much with the ball in his own hands.

    VanVleet may not be able to see his successor in practice these days the way Armstead could. Maybe that guy just isn't there yet, which is possible; a player like Fred, even as a freshman, doesn't just show up every year. Or maybe it would have been Shamet, and if Landry hadn't been hurt FVV would have been channeling Armstead, lobbying for the freshman to get more time alongside him (or maybe not; we won't know -- fate has decided that combo isn't to be.) But one thing I hope Fred does remember is that, as good as Armstead was his senior year, it was teammates -- Baker, Cotton, Early, Fred himself -- who also played a huge part in getting WSU into the matchup with Louisville and in building the big lead that day, and it was Malcolm's off day while doing too much against a team determined to stop him that was a key factor in seeing the season end there.

    No, Fred doesn't have Early and Baker and Cotton and himself to turn to, or even Shamet, but he does still have Baker, plus new teammates with some genuine ability who are getting better, including one in Frankamp who has already shined on the big stage in international competition and whose shooting also nearly bailed out The Flagship and its dysfunctional collection of acclaimed talent in his last game for them a couple seasons ago. Fred has also now seen several times that when he tries to do too much it doesn't necessarily work any better for him than it did for Armstead against Louisville. He needs to lead, but also to trust his teammates and make them better, which is what put him on the national radar at WSU in the first place.

    So: no more LeFred, please -- just a return to the FVV we've seen elevate the Shocks ever since he took over the reins, by being not only a great player in his own right, but also the ultimate facilitator for his teammates, who sees what the defense is giving and takes it better than almost anyone else. THAT guy doesn't help lead his team to 52 or 53 points and close losses; he leads them to many more, and to resounding wins.

  • #2
    27, 17, 25

    That's Fred's pt totals in last year's Sweet 16 run. He was dominant at getting to the basket, as he was only 2/9 from 3 in those games.

    I think the dreadful 3 pt shooting by the rest of the team is the problem, not merely a symptom. Fred gets more attention when he drives because the defense doesn't mind giving up a 3 to someone else. This team has been miserable from 3 recently. To me, that is the single biggest problem. If WSU shoots 35% or better from 3, they beat almost anyone. Unfortunately, 35% is above average these days.
    Last edited by Jamar Howard 4 President; March 9, 2016, 08:31 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by WSUwatcher View Post
      I'm not sure this really deserves a thread of its own, because I don't know that anyone really cares about LeFred (after LeBron, of course), my own nickname I coined for FVV earlier this season when his critical importance to this year's Shocks became painfully apparent. It certainly hasn't caught on, so it's hard to imagine anyone missing it. But more important, it occurred to me after WSU's latest unsuccessful grindfest against Northern Iowa that calling him LeFred actually highlights the worst aspect of VanVleet's play this year, which has been trying to be Superman -- to do too much.

      Maybe he's still trying to prove a point about being left off the PanAm team, maybe he doesn't have enough faith in his younger teammates, who knows? But what we do know is that WSU's three losses to Valley opponents -- their three lowest scoring outputs of the year, and three of only four times they've been under 60 all season -- have some things in common. One has been frightful three point shooting, to be sure. But is that a cause or a symptom -- a symptom of general stagnation on offense as movement has slowed, dribbling has picked up, and the ball has tended to get stuck, occasionally in the hands of Baker but more often in the hands of FVV as he's tried to be LeFred and take over the game? How many of us, me included, have lamented this new tendency to try to win games himself occasionally instead of making his teammates better so the games can be won together?

      So I'm ditching the nickname and hoping not to see that persona any more as the Shocks try to get back to one more Final Four, because I believe that persona has become increasingly counterproductive. Which gets me to the lesson of Armstead. When Malcolm was a senior, he was WSU's unquestioned leader and capable of taking over games. But as he watched the team develop in practice, he also started lobbying Marshall for the new kid who was supposed to be his backup, FVV, to play more and play along with him, because Malcolm trusted him to help give WSU its best combination and chance to win. In tournament play, he also was willing to let new guys like Fred and Ron take over the spotlight down the stretch against Gonzaga, or Tekele Cotton launch the killer three against Ohio State that put WSU into the Final Four. And sadly, once WSU arrived, one of the things that sabotaged them against Louisville was Armstead's tough game (1-10 from the field, 0-5 from three) as he tried to do too much with the ball in his own hands.

      VanVleet may not be able to see his successor in practice these days the way Armstead could. Maybe that guy just isn't there yet, which is possible; a player like Fred, even as a freshman, doesn't just show up every year. Or maybe it would have been Shamet, and if Landry hadn't been hurt FVV would have been channeling Armstead, lobbying for the freshman to get more time alongside him (or maybe not; we won't know -- fate has decided that combo isn't to be.) But one thing I hope Fred does remember is that, as good as Armstead was his senior year, it was teammates -- Baker, Cotton, Early, Fred himself -- who also played a huge part in getting WSU into the matchup with Louisville and in building the big lead that day, and it was Malcolm's off day while doing too much against a team determined to stop him that was a key factor in seeing the season end there.

      No, Fred doesn't have Early and Baker and Cotton and himself to turn to, or even Shamet, but he does still have Baker, plus new teammates with some genuine ability who are getting better, including one in Frankamp who has already shined on the big stage in international competition and whose shooting also nearly bailed out The Flagship and its dysfunctional collection of acclaimed talent in his last game for them a couple seasons ago. Fred has also now seen several times that when he tries to do too much it doesn't necessarily work any better for him than it did for Armstead against Louisville. He needs to lead, but also to trust his teammates and make them better, which is what put him on the national radar at WSU in the first place.

      So: no more LeFred, please -- just a return to the FVV we've seen elevate the Shocks ever since he took over the reins, by being not only a great player in his own right, but also the ultimate facilitator for his teammates, who sees what the defense is giving and takes it better than almost anyone else. THAT guy doesn't help lead his team to 52 or 53 points and close losses; he leads them to many more, and to resounding wins.
      Reading ESPN interview with various seniors and Fred's comments that he wishes he was more assertive in he Kentucky game 2 years ago, what happened in the uni game doesn't suprise me. If he felt like he was playing his final game I assume his mindset was if anyone is going to take these shots it's going to me be. A double edged sword. One of Fred's greatest assets is finding the right guy to take the right shot, and either he had no confidence in anyone or he wanted to make sure he had his basketball life in his hands.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jamar Howard 4 President View Post
        27, 17, 25

        That's Fred's pt totals in last year's Sweet 16 run. He was dominant at getting to the basket, as he was only 2/9 from 3 in those games.

        I think the dreadful 3 pt shooting by the rest of the team is the problem, not merely a symptom. Fred gets more attention when he drives because the defense doesn't mind giving up a 3 to someone else. This team has been miserable from 3 recently. To me, that is the single biggest problem. If WSU shoots 35% or better from 3, they beat almost anyone. Unfortunately, 35% is above average these days.
        A year ago Fred had a first step that got him by his primary defender. That happens maybe once a game this year.

        Second - I don't see us missing many "good" threes. I see a lot of stagnant threes or desperation threes, but not many preceded by a great inside out pass, drive and kick, or ball rotation. When we do fundamental things we still struggle to shoot at a high percentage, but we are more efficient compared to our second halves against good competition. It is evident to me that we stop trusting anybody outside of the senior class to make a play when things get tight.

        The problem is fixable in my mind. Move the ball early and often, force the defense to move, get players moving, and trust your teammates... This is not a talent issue. Talent may not make us a top 25 offense, but it has an upside much higher than displayed this year.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by proshox View Post
          Second - I don't see us missing many "good" threes. I see a lot of stagnant threes or desperation threes, but not many preceded by a great inside out pass, drive and kick, or ball rotation. When we do fundamental things we still struggle to shoot at a high percentage, but we are more efficient compared to our second halves against good competition. It is evident to me that we stop trusting anybody outside of the senior class to make a play when things get tight.
          We must have watched different games. I thought the 24 three pointers taken against UNI in St. Louis were, on average, as wide open as any game all year. Just flat out couldn't make them.

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          • #6
            Before the season started, Fred made some comment in the paper to the effect of "wait till you see what's coming this year" in regards to his play. I have no idea what he meant by that, but it appears he might've thought he has much more to his game than has been displayed in the past. He needs to go back to playing FVV basketball, which is distributor. The guys he distributes to need to knock down shots. Once that loosens up the defense, he can start driving into the soft middle. Dribble drives as a first option is not the best offense for FVV or the Shockers.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jamar Howard 4 President View Post
              We must have watched different games. I thought the 24 three pointers taken against UNI in St. Louis were, on average, as wide open as any game all year. Just flat out couldn't make them.
              I agree with this. Sure, there were some bad looks that came late in the shot clock as a result of stagnant offense, but for the most part, we were getting just as good of looks if not better looks than we've seen in a lot of games this year. UNI was packing in the paint.

              Just a crazy thought that is probably the farthest thing from reality, but is there any chance some of our looks were too open, too much time to think instead of just letting it fly like we would have to do against someone guarding the 3-point line? Sometimes practicing something more difficult makes simple things harder. Just an example, when I played little league baseball, our coach brought in a pitching machine. I don't know what speed he set it at, but it was considerably faster than anyone in our league pitched. His thinking was it would speed our hands up and make us better hitters. It had the opposite result. When we went into games against the slower pitchers, we were out in front of everything and struggled to slow down enough to get the bat on the ball. Granted, we were 10 years old and I know it's something completely different, but I wonder if something similar could happen as a shooter.
              "You Don't Have to Play a Perfect Game. Your Best is Good Enough."

              Comment


              • #8
                Get his team mates more into the game?

                Besides Grady, Baker, Shaq and Frankamp, just which of his following team mates should he have gone to more in Saturday's game?

                Without listing names, this is the production that the 3 and 4 positions contributed in the game offensively - 3 of 31 attempts

                Time, after time, after time, Fred passed the ball and rarely did a 3 or 4 even attempt to drive to the basket or even try to get closer for an easier two point shot.

                This was a complete team loss and the blame does not rest on Fred alone.

                And for those who believe that we are going to be better next year without Fred and Ron, well I certainly hope this miracle of miracle happens too, but I no longer have the lung capacity for holding my breath til it happens.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm not going to say we will be better next year, that remains to be seen. I am hoping the offensive flow changes to fit the skill sets of the players that are the likely starters and prime reserves.
                  Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss

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                  • #10
                    UNI has us scouted. I think we have had 5 bad halves since the start of conference play. We are fine. Do I wish Evan and others would make open shots, absolutely, but lets quit the sky is falling mentality. After Sunday, if we aren't in, then the sky will be falling. Otherwise, I look forward to getting to play nonconference opponents on a 1-2 day scout.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 60Shock View Post
                      Get his team mates more into the game?

                      Besides Grady, Baker, Shaq and Frankamp, just which of his following team mates should he have gone to more in Saturday's game?

                      Without listing names, this is the production that the 3 and 4 positions contributed in the game offensively - 3 of 31 attempts

                      Time, after time, after time, Fred passed the ball and rarely did a 3 or 4 even attempt to drive to the basket or even try to get closer for an easier two point shot.

                      This was a complete team loss and the blame does not rest on Fred alone.
                      Definitely not. Brown, McDuffie, Rashard needed to take advantage of the fact that UNI was not going to double team them and attack the basket. Granted, that's what UNI was trying to take away. Had a few of those open shots fallen then they would've been forced to guard the three point line tighter which would've made the drives to the basket easier.

                      Like you said there were a lot of things that went into the loss.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jamar Howard 4 President View Post
                        We must have watched different games. I thought the 24 three pointers taken against UNI in St. Louis were, on average, as wide open as any game all year. Just flat out couldn't make them.
                        Agree that nearly all were wide open. But I saw many that were not in rhythm, i.e. a shuffle of feet, slight bobble of the ball, pass not caught in good position, etc. Still, those shooters should make 35% of those attempts. Many of Ron's were contested or he was "on the move," but he makes those routinely.
                        "I not sure that I've ever been around a more competitive player or young man than Fred VanVleet. I like to win more than 99.9% of the people in this world, but he may top me." -- Gregg Marshall 12/23/13 :peaceful:
                        ---------------------------------------
                        Remember when Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare:
                        "We have to pass it, to find out what's in it".

                        A physician called into a radio show and said:
                        "That's the definition of a stool sample."

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                        • #13
                          Not-so-random stat: Fred shoots three pointers (41.2%) better than two pointers (38.1%) per KenPom. Interesting.
                          "In God we trust, all others must bring data." - W. Edwards Deming

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
                            Not-so-random stat: Fred shoots three pointers (41.2%) better than two pointers (38.1%) per KenPom. Interesting.
                            Could be because most of his 2 pointers are on drives to the bucket where he's getting hammered on a regular basis.
                            "You Don't Have to Play a Perfect Game. Your Best is Good Enough."

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ShockdaWorld View Post
                              Could be because most of his 2 pointers are on drives to the bucket where he's getting hammered on a regular basis.
                              True. But I still think he's forcing it a tad too much.

                              One thing's for sure: early in the season, he got called for way too many charges going to the basket. Especially in the Seton Hall game. Those calls were brutal.
                              "In God we trust, all others must bring data." - W. Edwards Deming

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