No more LeFred (the lesson of Armstead)

[ShockdaWorld]

True. But I still think he's forcing it a tad too much.

One thing's for sure: early in the season, he got called for way too many charges going to the basket. Especially in the Seton Hall game. Those calls were brutal.

Agree with all of this.

[pie n eye]

One more thing about Fred. I thought there were several times in the Loyola and UNI games where he had an open look from 3, within the flow of the offense, that he passed up. I would love for him to take those shots.

[ShockdaWorld]

One more thing about Fred. I thought there were several times in the Loyola and UNI games where he had an open look from 3, within the flow of the offense, that he passed up. I would love for him to take those shots.

I thought I saw that from Fred and Conner both, whereas Ron was having to try to create shots and nobody else could hit a shot.

[Dan]

Fred's got a pretty nice mid-range game that he doesn't utilize near enough.

[WSUwatcher]

27, 17, 25

That's Fred's pt totals in last year's Sweet 16 run. He was dominant at getting to the basket, as he was only 2/9 from 3 in those games.

I think the dreadful 3 pt shooting by the rest of the team is the problem, not merely a symptom. Fred gets more attention when he drives because the defense doesn't mind giving up a 3 to someone else. This team has been miserable from 3 recently. To me, that is the single biggest problem. If WSU shoots 35% or better from 3, they beat almost anyone. Unfortunately, 35% is above average these days.

Thanks for the reminder, Jamar. I remember his big scoring during the tournament last year, which at the time seemed like it might have been a breakthrough of sorts. I actually even thought about addressing the point in my original post, but it was late and I was tired, plus I had gone on too long as it was.

I certainly do NOT hope that Fred stops asserting himself. I just hope he's more judicious about how he does so. And I do agree with the word another poster used, when he said he saw Fred getting stubborn lately. I think that's true, and that he'd do well to go back to what he does better than almost anyone else, which is taking what the defense gives. Dribbling on and on and sizing up his defender, then driving into not just traffic but gridlock, hoping for a foul call that hasn't come very often -- at some point, he has to realize that "Hey, this isn't working," and try something else rather than continuing and hoping that this trip will finally be the time the refs give him the call he deserves.

FVV is an excellent driver. But he's also very good at the drive and dish game, and he has great vision and judgment, so when the defense decides that it's just totally going to close the lane, which is what UNI has been doing, I have to believe that if he goes back and looks at the video, he can see that continuing to blast away wasn't his best choice. He's also a very good three point shooter -- Kel noted that he's actually hitting threes at a better percentage than twos (which doesn't surprise me, given the number of his twos this season that have practically been combat missions in the lane). I just wish he would do what he does best: use his judgment, drive when it's there, give the ball to teammates for open looks, and take threes when he has them. And yes, his teammates have to take the open shots they get (Frankamp comes to mind), and guys like Brown and McDuffie, and Wessel too, do need to make some. If FVV does that in a given game, and it just doesn't work out, so be it.

I just think he's playing differently than he has, trying to do more on his own, and that some opponents have seen that too and decided to take it away, with the result that against teams with the ability to do so it isn't working out very well. That's why I mentioned the 2013 lesson of Armstead and Louisville -- Malcolm was a great driver, even bigger and stronger than FVV, who could take over a game too. But when the other team is pretty good in their own right and they decide to take away an element of your game, then continuing time after time to try to win THEIR battle instead of fighting a different one of YOUR choosing can catch up with you. I'm just hoping that this season doesn't turn out to be the 2016 lesson of FVV and UNI plus some team in the tournament that takes a page out of their book and makes it work.

[1979Shocker]

Get his team mates more into the game?

Besides Grady, Baker, Shaq and Frankamp, just which of his following team mates should he have gone to more in Saturday's game?

Without listing names, this is the production that the 3 and 4 positions contributed in the game offensively - 3 of 31 attempts

Time, after time, after time, Fred passed the ball and rarely did a 3 or 4 even attempt to drive to the basket or even try to get closer for an easier two point shot.

This was a complete team loss and the blame does not rest on Fred alone.

And for those who believe that we are going to be better next year without Fred and Ron, well I certainly hope this miracle of miracle happens too, but I no longer have the lung capacity for holding my breath til it happens.

I think we'll have better offensive stats next year, but probably not better offensive execution.

[im4wsu]

Thanks for the reminder, Jamar. I remember his big scoring during the tournament last year, which at the time seemed like it might have been a breakthrough of sorts. I actually even thought about addressing the point in my original post, but it was late and I was tired, plus I had gone on too long as it was.

I certainly do NOT hope that Fred stops asserting himself. I just hope he's more judicious about how he does so. And I do agree with the word another poster used, when he said he saw Fred getting stubborn lately. I think that's true, and that he'd do well to go back to what he does better than almost anyone else, which is taking what the defense gives. Dribbling on and on and sizing up his defender, then driving into not just traffic but gridlock, hoping for a foul call that hasn't come very often -- at some point, he has to realize that "Hey, this isn't working," and try something else rather than continuing and hoping that this trip will finally be the time the refs give him the call he deserves.

FVV is an excellent driver. But he's also very good at the drive and dish game, and he has great vision and judgment, so when the defense decides that it's just totally going to close the lane, which is what UNI has been doing, I have to believe that if he goes back and looks at the video, he can see that continuing to blast away wasn't his best choice. He's also a very good three point shooter -- Kel noted that he's actually hitting threes at a better percentage than twos (which doesn't surprise me, given the number of his twos this season that have practically been combat missions in the lane). I just wish he would do what he does best: use his judgment, drive when it's there, give the ball to teammates for open looks, and take threes when he has them. And yes, his teammates have to take the open shots they get (Frankamp comes to mind), and guys like Brown and McDuffie, and Wessel too, do need to make some. If FVV does that in a given game, and it just doesn't work out, so be it.

I just think he's playing differently than he has, trying to do more on his own, and that some opponents have seen that too and decided to take it away, with the result that against teams with the ability to do so it isn't working out very well. That's why I mentioned the 2013 lesson of Armstead and Louisville -- Malcolm was a great driver, even bigger and stronger than FVV, who could take over a game too. But when the other team is pretty good in their own right and they decide to take away an element of your game, then continuing time after time to try to win THEIR battle instead of fighting a different one of YOUR choosing can catch up with you. I'm just hoping that this season doesn't turn out to be the 2016 lesson of FVV and UNI plus some team in the tournament that takes a page out of their book and makes it work.

It takes at least two and more likely 3-4 players to make the drive and dish available. If others are not at the right spot at the right time, bingo, FVV has no choice.

[AZ Shocker]

I noticed Conner looks and in more cases than FVV and Baker...passes to the post. At first I thought that was interesting but perhaps that was more in the ku playbook than Marshall's system. Either way...I like that he does that.

[Kung Wu]

Odd, I don't remember Conner passing it to the post much. I keep seeing him play hot rock with the ball and swinging it to the weakside guard as quickly as he can. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes he passes up an open look, or the post, or a forward because he doesn't take the time to see if there's a more assertive opportunity available.

I would WAY rather he do what he's doing than jack up BAD shots or turn into a turnover machine, but his play is a bit too timid and lacks aggression.

The good news is he is a sophomore and that's not unusual.

[pinstripers]

I remember some wonderful passes into the post by Conner, but I doubt if it was a lot of passes per minutes played.

[Ol skool]

It takes at least two and more likely 3-4 players to make the drive and dish available. If others are not at the right spot at the right time, bingo, FVV has no choice.

Last second passes made because you can't get your shot off rarely create a rhythm shot. Our perimeter players are constantly over dribbling. And often when they pass it the ball seems to go back to them. I personally believe they ask for it right back. And then they dribble some more. Players often lose confidence within themselves when the leaders have no confidence in them.

[im4wsu]

Last second passes made because you can't get your shot off rarely create a rhythm shot. Our perimeter players are constantly over dribbling. And often when they pass it the ball seems to go back to them. I personally believe they ask for it right back. And then they dribble some more. Players often lose confidence within themselves when the leaders have no confidence in them.

Don't disagree, but I was addressing drive and dish, which does not fit the scenario you present in any imaginable way

[Ol skool]

Don't disagree, but I was addressing drive and dish, which does not fit the scenario you present in any imaginable way

I was thinking about the drive and dish as well. When the guard drives and don't dish until he is sure there's nothing else he can do with the ball.
It disrupts rhythm.

[im4wsu]

I was thinking about the drive and dish as well. When the guard drives and don't dish until he is sure there's nothing else he can do with the ball.
It disrupts rhythm.

You lost me with "when he passes it, the ball seems to come back to him". That doesn't happen except on the perimeter

[Ol skool]

You lost me with "when he passes it, the ball seems to come back to him". That doesn't happen except on the perimeter

Oh sorry for the confusion. My whole point was about ball sticking in the guards hands to long. On the perimeter and on the drive and dish as well.