Offseason Thread: 2015 Edition

[another shocker]

offseason thread-

i was listening to sports talk daily at work today and somebody called in saying he had recently watched an outside the lines episode on espn and that the subject was fifth year seniors being able to transfer without sitting out a year (football and basketball). some coaches don't like that rule, obviously (imagine if baker had transferred to, say, virginia or, heaven forbid, kansas). but anyway, the caller said that they spoke with the cleveland state basketball coach and he was pissed off about anton grady transferring to wichita state. did anybody see that episode? i don't think that rule will last too much longer.

[Dave Stalwart]

offseason thread-

i was listening to sports talk daily at work today and somebody called in saying he had recently watched an outside the lines episode on espn and that the subject was fifth year seniors being able to transfer without sitting out a year (football and basketball). some coaches don't like that rule, obviously (imagine if baker had transferred to, say, virginia or, heaven forbid, kansas). but anyway, the caller said that they spoke with the cleveland state basketball coach and he was pissed off about anton grady transferring to wichita state. did anybody see that episode? i don't think that rule will last too much longer.

I can certainly see a coach's perspective when they've poured several years of effort into a guy only to watch him leave at the peak of what he could have given back to the team.

On the other hand, I start to lean toward the player a little bit when it's about a guy like Anton Grady. At what point is it okay to admit that the coach let a kid down when he's about to start his senior year and there is no reason to believe the team is going to be that good even though the individual player has worked hard to become ready. If you are talking about your average player who is transferring to become a bench player on a great team or even a starter on a slightly better team, I feel like the coach has a good reason to be mad. But if you are talking about a player who has been the only good thing about his team all along and he finally gives up because he doesn't like the coach that much and the team his coach has assembled has little reason for believing AND the player is absolutely talented enough to win a national championship on a different team as a likely starter...

I just think it's a coach's job to be willing to turn a kid loose when he hasn't necessarily pieced together a worthy supporting cast or team dynamic that would entice a guy to stay. I read the story in the Eagle where Grady talked about Cleveland State being different from WSU in the way the practices are all about "team" instead of individualism. Grady was a diamond in the rough over there. Instead of a coach being mad about a guy wanting to leave, maybe the coach should ask himself why that kid wanted to leave. Grady seems like a good kid so far. He just didn't want to be on a team that didn't play team ball and had no hype for next season. When a potential title contender needs you in particular for a one and done glory run, how do you say no when you stop and look at your current team. That coach didn't do enough for Anton and Anton had the right to leave. No reason to be mad. Maybe Anton's the one who has the right to be mad...

Maybe I'm wrong here, but that's what I feel like today. Maybe I'll waffle the more I think about it.

[ShockdaWorld]

offseason thread-

i was listening to sports talk daily at work today and somebody called in saying he had recently watched an outside the lines episode on espn and that the subject was fifth year seniors being able to transfer without sitting out a year (football and basketball). some coaches don't like that rule, obviously (imagine if baker had transferred to, say, virginia or, heaven forbid, kansas). but anyway, the caller said that they spoke with the cleveland state basketball coach and he was pissed off about anton grady transferring to wichita state. did anybody see that episode? i don't think that rule will last too much longer.

I didn't see the show, but I did read a similar story, and while I'm not a big fan of the rule, I am glad that our staff is taking advantage of it. As for the rule not lasting much longer, I think it will last as long as the Power 5 wants it to last. And, trying to see it from their perspective, I don't know why they would ever want it to go away, considering that they are generally the pillagers rather than the pillaged.

[Cdizzle]

I don't like the senior transfer rule, even though I am fully willing to admit WSU stands to gain a lot from it this particular year. I think the intent of the rule is great, but it has to be used for it's real intent about .05% of the time. Much like the rest of the NCAAs rules.

[WSUwatcher]

Good thoughts, Stalwart.

The senior transfer rule has kind of become the NCAA's version of free agency, which may or may not have been its intent (and who knows what the real story is, especially given the way it's taken advantage of by the big boys who dominate NCAA decision-making, if not its membership numbers). I agree with those who consider that unseemly. But it's there, and given how it's used and by whom, I personally do not think it's going away or likely to be significantly modified, and would be pleasantly surprised if it does. With that in mind, it's a real tribute to Marshall and his machine that they've made WSU desirable enough to be a beneficiary rather than a victim.

As for Grady, I'm with you 100%. We see free agents in the pros move on all the time if their teams don't appear to be building a winner within the time frame that will give them a chance to participate in that success, and very few people find anything wrong with that -- I certainly don't. I think that's exactly what happened here, and I hope Anton is rewarded for his perfectly rational decision -- and that the Cleveland State coach does look in the mirror and see what he can do differently and better.

[Dave Stalwart]

Good thoughts, Stalwart.

The senior transfer rule has kind of become the NCAA's version of free agency, which may or may not have been its intent (and who knows what the real story is, especially given the way it's taken advantage of by the big boys who dominate NCAA decision-making, if not its membership numbers). I agree with those who consider that unseemly. But it's there, and given how it's used and by whom, I personally do not think it's going away or likely to be significantly modified, and would be pleasantly surprised if it does. With that in mind, it's a real tribute to Marshall and his machine that they've made WSU desirable enough to be a beneficiary rather than a victim.

As for Grady, I'm with you 100%. We see free agents in the pros move on all the time if their teams don't appear to be building a winner within the time frame that will give them a chance to participate in that success, and very few people find anything wrong with that -- I certainly don't. I think that's exactly what happened here, and I hope Anton is rewarded for his perfectly rational decision -- and that the Cleveland State coach does look in the mirror and see what he can do differently and better.

It's really easy for me to be on one side of the argument when my school has hired the best coach in the NCAA. Here I am justifying it because we happen to be the ones getting Anton. Cleveland State must hate WSU a lot right now. I do see that perspective very clearly. I just think it's important for people to understand that Anton has already mentioned he did not like the player dynamics at his former school. When I hear things like that, I start thinking on behalf of the player and how lame it would be to have your senior year be anti-climactic not because you didn't do your part, but because no one else did. Contrast that with Kyle Weems who had no business staying at Missouri State, but he did because he liked what he had and he wanted to lead his locker room. I think Anton Grady compares very well with Kyle Weems. The only difference is that Anton Grady was in a program he didn't love. Hard to fault him for being willing to leave. It also helps when a guy leaves for a non-power 5 school who is currently rolling. It's not like he got poached by Kentucky. He got "poached" by a very similar school that is just doing a wonderful job lately. It's definitely a "take a look in the mirror" kind of situation if there ever was one.

[rayc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't a "5th year senior" rule, it is a "graduate student" rule.

In order to utilize it the student has to be going to graduate school at the new University with one year
of NCAA basketball elgibility remaining.

At one time the school had to offer a graduate field that the current school did not. But I believe that requirement
was dropped a couple of years ago, and the flood gate opened.

[another shocker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't a "5th year senior" rule, it is a "graduate student" rule.

In order to utilize it the student has to be going to graduate school at the new University with one year
of NCAA basketball elgibility remaining.

At one time the school had to offer a graduate field that the current school did not. But I believe that requirement
was dropped a couple of years ago, and the flood gate opened.

yes. hence the expose on outside the lines.

[im4wsu]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't a "5th year senior" rule, it is a "graduate student" rule.

In order to utilize it the student has to be going to graduate school at the new University with one year
of NCAA basketball elgibility remaining.

At one time the school had to offer a graduate field that the current school did not. But I believe that requirement
was dropped a couple of years ago, and the flood gate opened.

With the current state of high school academics and being able to accumulate lots of "college credits" before graduating high schools, it is extremely possible for a student athlete to graduate in three years, redshirt, RS freshman and RS sophomore and have two years following graduation. Will this be permitted?

[wufan]

With the current state of high school academics and being able to accumulate lots of "college credits" before graduating high schools, it is extremely possible for a student athlete to graduate in three years, redshirt, RS freshman and RS sophomore and have two years following graduation. Will this be permitted?

I believe a kid from Illinois State did this. Zeisloft?

[WuDrWu]

I'd like to see the receiving school pay some kind of cost. If team A is going to benefit from a transfer like this (say WSU) who was cultivated and recruited and nurtured at another school, then School A should be forced to somehow reimburse school B (Cleveland State) for something....I'm not sure what I'd want to see, but maybe school A "gives" school B one scholarship and has to forfeit one themselves sometime in the following 2 years.

So Cleveland State gets a check from WSU and can use 1 extra scholarship (14 total) in the following 2 seasons and WSU is one short (12) in the next 2 seasons.

Just my .02.

[ShockTalk]

It's really easy for me to be on one side of the argument when my school has hired the best coach in the NCAA. Here I am justifying it because we happen to be the ones getting Anton. Cleveland State must hate WSU a lot right now. I do see that perspective very clearly. I just think it's important for people to understand that Anton has already mentioned he did not like the player dynamics at his former school. When I hear things like that, I start thinking on behalf of the player and how lame it would be to have your senior year be anti-climactic not because you didn't do your part, but because no one else did. Contrast that with Kyle Weems who had no business staying at Missouri State, but he did because he liked what he had and he wanted to lead his locker room. I think Anton Grady compares very well with Kyle Weems. The only difference is that Anton Grady was in a program he didn't love. Hard to fault him for being willing to leave. It also helps when a guy leaves for a non-power 5 school who is currently rolling. It's not like he got poached by Kentucky. He got "poached" by a very similar school that is just doing a wonderful job lately. It's definitely a "take a look in the mirror" kind of situation if there ever was one.

I think your comment that Cleveland St must be hating WSU a lot right now might be over stated. First, Grady was the second 5th year "graduate" to leave this year. Had Trey Lewis (CSU's leading scorer and PG) not left for Louisville, Anton may have still been at Cleveland. They also lost their leading scorer and another 5th grad from last year's squad, Bryn Forbes, to Michigan St. It looks more like a snow ball effect. If not WSU, it would have been someone else.

[mattdalt]

I'd like to see the receiving school pay some kind of cost. If team A is going to benefit from a transfer like this (say WSU) who was cultivated and recruited and nurtured at another school, then School A should be forced to somehow reimburse school B (Cleveland State) for something....I'm not sure what I'd want to see, but maybe school A "gives" school B one scholarship and has to forfeit one themselves sometime in the following 2 years.

So Cleveland State gets a check from WSU and can use 1 extra scholarship (14 total) in the following 2 seasons and WSU is one short (12) in the next 2 seasons.

Just my .02.

So, while coaches continue to enjoy the freedom to move from job to job, you are in favor of making it more restrictive for the student?

Just my .01 :)

[Dave Stalwart]

I think your comment that Cleveland St must be hating WSU a lot right now might be over stated. First, Grady was the second 5th year "graduate" to leave this year. Had Trey Lewis (CSU's leading scorer and PG) not left for Louisville, Anton may have still been at Cleveland. They also lost their leading scorer and another 5th grad from last year's squad, Bryn Forbes, to Michigan St. It looks more like a snow ball effect. If not WSU, it would have been someone else.

Sounds like there was an exodus. Hard to blame these guys if they all left at the same time. I'll bet it wasnt so hot up there in general.

[Dave Stalwart]

I'd like to see the receiving school pay some kind of cost. If team A is going to benefit from a transfer like this (say WSU) who was cultivated and recruited and nurtured at another school, then School A should be forced to somehow reimburse school B (Cleveland State) for something....I'm not sure what I'd want to see, but maybe school A "gives" school B one scholarship and has to forfeit one themselves sometime in the following 2 years.

So Cleveland State gets a check from WSU and can use 1 extra scholarship (14 total) in the following 2 seasons and WSU is one short (12) in the next 2 seasons.

Just my .02.

Since there's no way to quantify how much cultivation even took place it's a little murky how much is really owed. It's entirely possible that a really good player can out perform what the coach even gave him. Maybe it should be a mandatory 4 game series between the two schools.

Since low and mid majors are always the ones getting hosed on losing their best talent, it would be a nice consolation prize to land a long series with the likely strong program who took the player. Plus it's not monetary or a penalty of any kind.... Unless you are the whiny strong program who can't stand bringing a crappy mid major into your house for fear of losing the game to them :)

I wouldn't complain about a 2 or 4 game series with Cleveland state at all.