March Madness: FFRF challenges Wichita State’s basketball chaplain

[shocka khan]

Personally, if the team wants to have a chaplain, it's their business. Where I draw the line is when 'everyone' is forced into participation.

'Everyone' has the right to their own private beliefs.

[DUShock]

You're correct. Don't know why the 2nd amendment was stuck in my mind. Perhaps I've not had enough caffeine today.

[shocka khan]

By the way, if this fool's errand ends up in court, what would make anyone think that a conservative judge (either elected directly by social conservatives or appointed by a socially conservative governor) would do anything other than summarily throw it out after hearing it?

[DUShock]

By the way, if this fool's errand ends up in court, what would make anyone think that a conservative judge (either elected directly by social conservatives or appointed by a socially conservative governor) would do anything other than summarily throw it out after hearing it?

I am not an attorney but I do a decent job of playing paralegal and using my grad school law courses in my profession so I will defer my next comment to any esteemed barrister of this board.

I believe the litmus will hinge on rather a) attendance/seeing the padre is mandatory and b) rather he is directly using public funds. The semantics and nuance of these issues is why we have attorneys and judges to ferret out the details.

[shocka khan]

Yes, and if I were the administration of our university and if I thought having a chaplaincy was a good idea, I would probably have my legal department advise me on how to design the program so it would withstand legal challenges. One of the risks I would see in a legal challenge is that someone would say you're using state funds to promote religion, so I would make sure the funding wasn't 'official'.

'Official' means someone else (other than the state) is paying the bills.

[ShockerFever]

This thing may have had relevancy early but it's quickly involving into more off-topic jargon. Please either move it or let it die in here.

[jdshock]

And I'm pretty sure their point is moot, because I read he's a volunteer, he doesn't get paid.

Volunteering doesn't matter. If HCGM required the team to attend daily Muslim prayer led by a volunteer, it would still be viewed as a government restriction on freedom of religion. HCGM's and Wichita State's authority comes from the state, so any religious requirement they may place on the player would fall under the First Amendment. Edit: Volunteering would affect their claim that tax payer money is going toward religious causes.

This situation does not look as if it reaches that extreme of a level. I just wanted to clarify that payment is not a key point the organization would have to prove to win.

As a side, in my personal experience, WSU (and all state schools for that matter) are scared of litigation and tend to give in to demand letters. I think it's likely that Dickie will transition into only a Character Coach role and will never be referred to as a Chaplain. I think he may have to stop leading prayers before and after games. Any mandatory meetings will not include reference to religion. He will probably still be allowed to discuss religion voluntarily with players. This is all just my opinion, and none of this is necessarily what I think a court would order. These are just my guesses for what WSU will decide.

[WstateU]

I'd like to kick the letter writers in their nut sacks...

Hopefully, this will be more appropriate before a 'potential' game on Saturday, but what the heck... it always gives me "chill bumps". :)

[im4wsu]

https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...tball-chaplain

79, could you remove the word "March" from the title, then it would read just fine.

[Kung Wu]

I think you've had a little too much caffeine and you're spinning this one a little too much.

First, I don't think he was being 'directly attacked'. A letter was sent. Their position was stated. A Freedom of Information request was made.

Stop parsing my words. This is a conversation, not a journal submission. You know darn good and well I meant they are directly attacking his "position", not the man.

I agree that it is completely relevant on this forum, I am just objecting to the placement. We have a forum for politics and it should probably be there. We don't all believe the same way, it would be a boring world if we did.

It doesn't matter which side of the argument you are on -- it is directly related to and affects the basketball team, therefore it belongs in the basketball forum. The politics forum was created for political matters unrelated to the basketball team (which is 99+% of political topics). You can certainly create a new topic in the politics forum discussing this political group in general, and that would make sense. But the discussion surrounding the basketball team's chaplain belongs right here, IMO.

[jocoshock]

Stop parsing my words. This is a conversation, not a journal submission. You darn good and well I meant they are directly attacking his position, not the man.



It doesn't matter which side of the argument you are on -- it is directly related to and affects the basketball team, therefore it belongs in the basketball forum. The politics forum was created for political matters unrelated to the basketball team (which is 99+% of political topics). You can certainly create a new topic in the politics forum discussing this political group in general, and that would make sense. But the discussion surrounding the basketball team's chaplain belongs right here, IMO.

Politics and basketball should not mix. To the extent they intersect, then politics should move to the appropriate forum (Politics). Seems to me your insistence on discussing in the basketball forum is ironically similar to the intrusiveness of the FFRF into the team's locker room.

[jdshock]

Politics and basketball should not mix. To the extent they intersect, then politics should move to the appropriate forum (Politics). Seems to me your insistence on discussing in the basketball forum is ironically similar to the intrusiveness of the FFRF into the team's locker room.

What if there were a house bill introduced to require KU/KSU/WSU to all play? That would be an intersection of politics and basketball.

[jocoshock]

What if there were a house bill introduced to require KU/KSU/WSU to all play? That would be an intersection of politics and basketball.

Yes, it would, and I feel the same way about it.

[jdshock]

Yes, it would, and I feel the same way about it.

Fair enough. I appreciate your consistency.

I very rarely check out the politics section, so I like it when issues that could affect our team are in the basketball forum. To me, potential litigation isn't even really politics. It's part of the justice system, so just like we would put an arrest in the basketball forum, I am fine with this being here.

[ShockBand]

Though I don't want to elaborate more on this here, it isn't just the atheist/agnostic side who politicizes religion. We have plenty of Christian beliefs being politicized by the Christian side as well. As for this exact situation, if the players aren't forced into anything, and no public monies are involved, there is nothing to see here. Move along.