Little over half way in to the season

[shocka khan]

I'd give them a 4 right now. I think there's room to go up to 8 or 9, but until I see that we can handle that big, physical front line, I am going to be skeptical.

For those of you out there who know more than I do, what does UNI look like? I also think U of E will give us some problems. I think Mock in underrated.

[shockerfanmas]

I did say "there aren't MANY", leaving the possibility that there are some ;)

Although I'm not sure the extreme example (lost all of their conference games, won the conference tournament) has ever happened. If it has, that's awesome.

Every now and then you'll see the hot shooting 16 seed knock off a Duke and then get creamed in their second game ... but they're definitely a rarity. With ~350 teams in the NCAA, my definition of a "bad" team is probably looser than most -- that would probably be teams 250+ for me.

Fair enough, I do get what you were trying to say. It would be interesting to go back and see if any single digit win teams have ever gotten lucky enough to sneak into the NCAA tournament, or what is the team with the worst record that has made the field. I seriously doubt if my extreme example has happened, but you're right, it would be crazy if it did.

I do know a few years back, Wichita West High School took advantage of an extremely weak sub-state to win and advance to the state tournament with just 5 wins. I think it was the first year they dropped to 5A, but I'm not sure. I do remember that happening though.

[jdshock]

I don't buy it. I think that in order to be successful in the NCAA tournament and really in basketball in general you have to be able to play against a variety of different teams/styles of play. The same can be said for non-conference (not all non con teams are the same) and conference (again, different styles and personnel each game). You have to be able to find a way to win regardless of the matchup.

Defending, rebounding, taking care of the ball. Those are the kind of things you have control of regardless of the match up. If you do those three things more often than not you'll have an opportunity to win a game.

So you DO think we were the 32nd best team last year?

Thats fine, I'm probably not going to convince you. I think the vast majority of experts agree that some teams are more likely to struggle against certain other teams. Our final four year, Syracuse would've been hard to beat in the national championship game for us because of their zone. Michigan beat them and we'd probably have beat Michigan.

[pie n eye]

I have to disagree with that statement. Hypothetically, let's say that a team loses all their conference games, but somehow gets hot in the conference tournament and wins it, going into the NCAA tournament with.. say.. 5 wins. To me, that's still a bad team that just got on a hot streak in their conference tournament. Highly unlikely I know, but just saying. Ok, let me rephrase the wording then. Instead of "bad" teams, how about I say teams that probably don't deserve to be there.

Yep, last year against Kentucky was an unfavorable match-up for us, favorable for them.

I think there is too much emphasis placed on "the matchups". Coaching, strategy, willlingness to execute a game plan are totally overlooked if it's just "they have a bunch of big guys and we don't".

[shockerfanmas]

So you DO think we were the 32nd best team last year?

Thats fine, I'm probably not going to convince you. I think the vast majority of experts agree that some teams are more likely to struggle against certain other teams. Our final four year, Syracuse would've been hard to beat in the national championship game for us because of their zone. Michigan beat them and we'd probably have beat Michigan.

Trust me, you won't convince him. Even the experts have said that a lot of it depends on match up. But.. some fans know more than the experts.. so..

[pie n eye]

So you DO think we were the 32nd best team last year?

Thats fine, I'm probably not going to convince you. I think the vast majority of experts agree that some teams are more likely to struggle against certain other teams. Our final four year, Syracuse would've been hard to beat in the national championship game for us because of their zone. Michigan beat them and we'd probably have beat Michigan.

No I don't think we were the 32nd best team last year.

I don't think we lost to Kentucky because we didn't match up with them. I think we lost because they had two more points than us at the end of the game. They made one more play than we did down the stretch whether that play was a bucket, a stop, a rebound, whatever. They did it and we didn't.

I think "match ups" matter less in a win or go home scenario than a seven game series.

[shockerfanmas]

Kinda agree with what he's saying, but not really. Like anything, it's just a matter of opinion

[pie n eye]

Trust me, you won't convince him. Even the experts have said that a lot of it depends on match up. But.. some fans know more than the experts.. so..

Experts like Doug Gottlieb and Jeff *******? Or Charles Barkely, or Clark Kellogg? If the shockers had listened to the experts who said we didn't match up with one team after another during the final four run then, well, we would've lost against Pitt.

[shockerfanmas]

Experts like Doug Gottlieb and Jeff *******? Or Charles Barkely, or Clark Kellogg? If the shockers had listened to the experts who said we didn't match up with one team after another during the final four run then, well, we would've lost against Pitt.

They are experts for a reason, we are fans for a reason. Take it for what it's worth. You have your opinion, I have mine, leave it at that.

[shocka khan]

pie n eye thinks our 6'4" PF can defend against Kentucky's 6' 11" 280 lb power forward. That's why he's saying this.

I don't think we were the 32nd best team last year. But I also think it's pretty clear that Kentucky had a lot of taller, more athletic people than we did.

No, I think our problem stemmed more from the screwing the selection committee gave us. But I also think we didn't have the size to match up with Kentucky last year. A lot of other teams had that same problem (including Louisville). If we had been in the bracket we probably deserved to be in, we would have been in the F4.

[pie n eye]

pie n eye thinks our 6'4" PF can defend against Kentucky's 6' 11" 280 lb power forward. That's why he's saying this.

I don't think we were the 32nd best team last year. But I also think it's pretty clear that Kentucky had a lot of taller, more athletic people than we did.

No, I think our problem stemmed more from the screwing the selection committee gave us. But I also think we didn't have the size to match up with Kentucky last year. A lot of other teams had that same problem (including Louisville). If we had been in the bracket we probably deserved to be in, we would have been in the F4.

I never said that but for the sake of argument how about on the other end of the court when the 6'10 kid is out guarding the perimeter instead of protecting the rim?

You're right, Kentucky did have a lot of tall, athletic guys on the court. Yet Wichita State came within a bounce of winning the game.

[1972Shocker]

The final product -- a 14-2 (4-0) record and a #13 ranking -- are very good and deserving a very high rating. Relative to my expectations coming into the season I give the Shocks a 10 for the record and the ranking.

Watching the product being made has been a little harder on the stomach. We have been a little inconsistent overall and within games. Even Fred and Ron have had their struggles at times. We knew we would miss Cle and that has been born out. We have not dominated the boards like we normally do and I was hoping that 2 or 3 of the newcomers would have been well entrenched by now. Perhaps Shaq has taken that step. But none of the other newbies have despite showing occasional flashes of what they are capable of. So getting to where we're at has been more of a grind than I would have hoped for and we still have a lot of work to make this team a finished product. So relative to what this team is capable of I think we are at about a 7.

[Bluzrover]

The final product -- a 14-2 (4-0) record and a #13 ranking -- are very good and deserving a very high rating. Relative to my expectations coming into the season I give the Shocks a 10 for the record and the ranking.

Watching the product being made has been a little harder on the stomach. We have been a little inconsistent overall and within games. Even Fred and Ron have had their struggles at times. We knew we would miss Cle and that has been born out. We have not dominated the boards like we normally do and I was hoping that 2 or 3 of the newcomers would have been well entrenched by now. Perhaps Shaq has taken that step. But none of the other newbies have despite showing occasional flashes of what they are capable of. So getting to where we're at has been more of a grind than I would have hoped for and we still have a lot of work to make this team a finished product. So relative to what this team is capable of I think we are at about a 7.

This is my thinking as well. I believe our expectations for this year's Shox are oftentimes viewed through the unrealistic notion we could pick right up where we left off last season with another run through an undefeated regular season. 3G has built yet another tournament-worthy team that is competitive yet has a few holes. So in that regard, I'm really satisfied at this point in the season. Like others, would love to see one of the freshmen just be standout above others but I'm not sure that is ever the case with a 3G team. Hell, even FVV didn't get a lot of minutes or truly flash his brilliance early in his fresh season.

[AZ Shocker]

I'm still not as sold on the freshmen as some are, but I'm very encouraged by Shaq the last couple games.

I remember seeing Fred and Ron as Freshmen at about this point in the season and saying to myself..."wow...those two look really good!!!" Thus far in the season...I have not thought to myself "wow...that freshmen looks really good." There are 6 of 'em (that get floor time). Not that I'm unimpressed by the freshman class...just at this point...there's not a Fred or Ron in that class. Those two are very special players and it's gonna be very hard (if ever) to replace those two guys. Maybe even once in a lifetime types. GO SHOCKS!!!

[Rlh04d]

I remember seeing Fred and Ron as Freshmen at about this point in the season and saying to myself..."wow...those two look really good!!!" Thus far in the season...I have not thought to myself "wow...that freshmen looks really good." There are 6 of 'em (that get floor time). Not that I'm unimpressed by the freshman class...just at this point...there's not a Fred or Ron in that class. Those two are very special players and it's gonna be very hard (if ever) to replace those two guys. Maybe even once in a lifetime types. GO SHOCKS!!!

Fred is the highest ranked recruit Marshall's ever brought in, and Baker was an absolute steal because of west Kansas/football. Having the two of them in the same class is ridiculous.

That said, at about this point in the season Ron was injured, and as a RS freshman getting very good minutes, before he was hurt he was putting up 7.3 ppg on 36.5% shooting, and 32% from three. On a per minute basis, that's .291 points per minute. Those numbers are almost identical to Ri'an Holland, across the board.

And at about this point that season, FVV, the stud of all stud PGs, was averaging 3.24 ppg (and just .226 points per minute), on 37% shooting, 31.25% from three, and barely over a 1:1 assist:turnover ratio. Holland's beating those numbers pretty much across the board, and Henderson isn't far off.

Not to mention Shaq's performance to this point is clearly superior to either Baker's or FVV's numbers in their freshmen seasons.

We were also about to go through a three game losing streak capped by a loss @SIU that had people losing their damn minds.

Which is a long, statistical way of saying: Relax. Even FVV and Baker weren't studs at this point in their freshmen years. Don't romanticize the past too much without context. (Granted, I knew FVV was going to be great just watching his HS tape, and I haven't had that feeling of any of our current freshmen, but the stats still were what they were.)