Lack of Blocks and an Inside Presence?

[Dan]

Kelly Olynyk/Gonzaga - bench player average 3 pts and 5 pts a game his first 2 years. Redshirted his 3rd year to get stronger and improve his game. Lottery pick after his 4th year.

[Aargh]

I will probably start growing concerned if we struggle in the MVC.

Are you serious? The bar is set a little higher than that. I will probably start growing concerned if we struggle in post-season play.

Kelly, Nurger, and Morris have some growing up to do in a hurry. They're going to be competing against significantly more experienced players in the NCAA's.

Wamukota? The first time Orukpe stepped on a D1 court and stood with his arms up in the air in front of the basket, guys trying to drive to the hoop peed down their legs and pretty much gave the Shox the ball. Wamukota? Guys drive to the hoop and shoot layups around him.

Glass reminds me of a more under control, but less flamboyant version of James Anacreon.

[jocoshock]

Honest question. Other than Hurt, what other 6'10"+ players did posters here think we were close in the running to get a commitment from? You cannot lose what you never were in the running for. Solid, immediate Big Man help is hard to come by. Add that some simply want to play for P5 schools, others elect to stay close to home, and other assorted factors and it's not hard to see the difficulty. Look what HCGM did in getting Cle. Just how many great coaches overlooked him?

By the way, at this point, I'm not disappointed in not getting Hurt. I don't follow K St, but looking at their stats, Hurt's barely 8th in minutes per game. For what ever reason, he's not lighting it up for them early on either.

Mike DeCoursey was on the Border Patrol last week talking about KState's lack of size and inability to score INSIDE the arc. Absolutely no mention of Mr.Hurt....

[jocoshock]

Are you serious? The bar is set a little higher than that. I will probably start growing concerned if we struggle in post-season play.

Kelly, Nurger, and Morris have some growing up to do in a hurry. They're going to be competing against significantly more experienced players in the NCAA's.

Wamukota? The first time Orukpe stepped on a D1 court and stood with his arms up in the air in front of the basket, guys trying to drive to the hoop peed down their legs and pretty much gave the Shox the ball. Wamukota? Guys drive to the hoop and shoot layups around him.

Glass reminds me of a more under control, but less flamboyant version of James Anacreon.

Most freshmen, by definition face the same challenges..

[kochHead]

Honestly, I would rather have a Carl Hall type player over a 7' Stutz type player. Everyone who is bagging on the size of player we are getting at the 4 and 5 spot have to remember that HCGM is still recruiting the best player he can get. They are not going to be that much different than before we made our FF run. There are still only so many skilled/athletic bigs out there, so if we have to give up a few inches to get a guy with a junk yard dog mentality, then so be it.

[Dave Stalwart]

Are you serious? The bar is set a little higher than that. I will probably start growing concerned if we struggle in post-season play.

Kelly, Nurger, and Morris have some growing up to do in a hurry. They're going to be competing against significantly more experienced players in the NCAA's.

Wamukota? The first time Orukpe stepped on a D1 court and stood with his arms up in the air in front of the basket, guys trying to drive to the hoop peed down their legs and pretty much gave the Shox the ball. Wamukota? Guys drive to the hoop and shoot layups around him.

Glass reminds me of a more under control, but less flamboyant version of James Anacreon.

I was actually talking about "as it pertains to the post season."

I will start worrying if they continue to struggle through the MVC schedule because that means we are toast in the post season. What I am hoping for is that the learning curve takes place in time for our bigs to show up in the postseason but if they don't quite start blossoming in January and February, I will have to start thinkin more "long term" with their development.

[jdshock]

Honestly, I would rather have a Carl Hall type player over a 7' Stutz type player. Everyone who is bagging on the size of player we are getting at the 4 and 5 spot have to remember that HCGM is still recruiting the best player he can get. They are not going to be that much different than before we made our FF run. There are still only so many skilled/athletic bigs out there, so if we have to give up a few inches to get a guy with a junk yard dog mentality, then so be it.

Agreed. I also think everyone on here would agree we'd rather have the mythical four year Anthony Davis, but that player doesn't exist.

I honestly believe HCGM's recruiting has looked like the movie Moneyball. If Carl Hall were 6'10" (and didn't have a heart condition), he'd have been a lottery pick. If FVV were 6'4", lottery pick. Kentucky gets who they want in basketball. The rest of us have to pick strategically what to value. HCGM has picked to recruit "undersized" players that have some of the best talent and work ethic in the country.

[wu_shizzle]

I think the concern here is not about lack of 7 footers, but lack of more standard size bigs (6'9" or 6'10") so we aren't relying on the Evan Wessels of the world to play the 4 spot. A few more "true 5s" would be nice.

It was easier to type "7' footer"; but just for you, my point was about 6'9+ D1 athletes and my point still stands.

[Jhook89]

Obviously, Nurger as a Freshman is not equal to Mockevicious as Junior but I think he definitely has the potential to be in a couple of years.

I completely agree. I could definitely see him being a complete stud. Hell, I'm excited to see him next year with a year under his belt. Not to get too far ahead of myself, but I think the squad next year has the potential to be the best in the 3G era.

1. VanVleet
2. Baker
3. Wessel
4. Kelly
5. Nurger

Backcourt depth: Holland, Frankcamp, Henderson, Brown, McDuffie, Shamet, Taylor
Frontcourt depth: Morris, Hamilton, Bush, Glass

Obviously, things are going to change and this wont be the exact roster, but tell me you don't get a little excited about this roster? The backcourt with the 3 seniors and that depth. They are going to have to extend the benches because our backcourt depth is going to be that deep next year. Once again, our frontcourt looks to be a little thin, but Nurger, Kelly, and Morris with a year under their belts play with our guards? Yes please!

[jdshock]

I completely agree. I could definitely see him being a complete stud. Hell, I'm excited to see him next year with a year under his belt. Not to get too far ahead of myself, but I think the squad next year has the potential to be the best in the 3G era.

1. VanVleet
2. Baker
3. Wessel
4. Kelly
5. Nurger

Backcourt depth: Holland, Frankcamp, Henderson, Brown, McDuffie, Shamet, Taylor
Frontcourt depth: Morris, Hamilton, Bush, Glass

Obviously, things are going to change and this wont be the exact roster, but tell me you don't get a little excited about this roster? The backcourt with the 3 seniors and that depth. They are going to have to extend the benches because our backcourt depth is going to be that deep next year. Once again, our frontcourt looks to be a little thin, but Nurger, Kelly, and Morris with a year under their belts play with our guards? Yes please!

If Baker keeps consistently playing like he has been, he's gone. I think it'll still be a good team, but on paper I'm not sure I think that line up without Baker looks better than this year's starting five. We'll have to see how much the new guys develop.

[Jhook89]

If Baker keeps consistently playing like he has been, he's gone. I think it'll still be a good team, but on paper I'm not sure I think that line up without Baker looks better than this year's starting five. We'll have to see how much the new guys develop.

I agree if Baker leaves that changes things, but I don't think it's a lock he leaves. I'd actually say there is a decent chance he stays. He is a late first/early second pick by most people right now. If he is told he isn't a lock to go in the first he may decide to stay for his senior year.

[ShockTalk]

There is definitely some upside there, but I have to admit that I'm not all that excited about the continuing trend of having 6'7" players stuck playing the 5 spot much of the time. Only Nurger has the true size to play the 5, and he is far from a sure thing just yet.

If that group turns out to be stellar, maybe it is a sign of things to come. However, right now, I stand by my statement that Marshall has only had a fraction of the success with 4 year bigs as he has had with 4 year guards.

Morris is not your typical 6'7" and with Bush Dubah as a backup (1st half of 1st D-I season Juco) it's not quite that small of group. Do not disagree with the last statement (however, see my next reply below). As for Hurt, I believe he's the one missing out the most.

You have a point to an extent. Guards are indeed more plentiful in general. However...

Gonzaga has a 7'1" Junior that has been in the program for 3 years now and is playing 23 minute a game this year. They also have a 6'10" freshman playing 19 minutes a game. I wish that was us.

We all know about Poeltl at Utah. I wish one of our 7' project players would turn out to be half as good as that guy.

Stephen Hurt may or may not turn out to be a nice player, but the fact that Marshall recruited him and then a (not blue blood) team like KSU got him is disappointing to me.

Big Man Pool, small with bigger crap shoot. Smaller Man Pool, bigger pool with smaller crap shoot. The outcome is generally predictable for most programs, even non-P5 upstarts. I know this doesn't set well with many here, but we are not Gonzaga. Long continuous success with a coach who has been there for just as long. That may be the little difference it takes to help get that key big man. Even media hot Coach Smart is finding things not that smooth at VCU.

Are you serious? The bar is set a little higher than that. I will probably start growing concerned if we struggle in post-season play.

Kelly, Nurger, and Morris have some growing up to do in a hurry. They're going to be competing against significantly more experienced players in the NCAA's.

Wamukota? The first time Orukpe stepped on a D1 court and stood with his arms up in the air in front of the basket, guys trying to drive to the hoop peed down their legs and pretty much gave the Shox the ball. Wamukota? Guys drive to the hoop and shoot layups around him.

Glass reminds me of a more under control, but less flamboyant version of James Anacreon.

As someone said, the bad thing is they're freshman, the good thing is...they're freshmen. Not just you @Aargh:, but many here are sounding very "Blue-bloodish" of late. Growing concerned if we struggle in post-season play?!?! Really! I'm by no means content, but it's been a long, long time since we've had this kind of ride. There will be bumps in the road, but this program is still heading upwards. Damn, how long did we go without a Dance card at all? Could Marshall actually be just human?

Sure I want the Shockers to get that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But the truth is, even for the best of teams, only one will win it each year and they may not even be one the best. What HCGM and his staff have done (and still are) is amazing. No problem with critiquing. I remember most here saying how long it takes big men to develop, and I agree. However, now we're saying that by the end of their first season we will probably start growing concerned if they have a lack of solid play in the post-season.

[WSUwatcher]

Asking me to name a JuCo we missed who's doing anything is a bit silly. JuCo's never tend to do much in the first half of the year. Pointing out that none of the JuCo's we went after is doing much so far this year just underscores the fact that the front court problem already existed on the roster last year.

This year we have a team that's more suited for play in the MVC than in the tourney. This probably had to happen in order to make the transition from recruiting post players from JuCo's to recruiting them out of HS.

Taking your quoted observations in order:

1. I don't necessarily accept your premise about juco bigs and their productivity, because even if they don't have as big an immediate impact as they eventually will there are certainly guys you can look at as they're making the adjustment to D-1 ball and expect to be difference makers. Lots of observers, and not just SN posters, thought that of Darius Carter, of Cleanthony Early, and also of Carl Hall (who, as we know, actually measured 6-6 and yet was a perfectly serviceable post on a Final Four that didn't fall short of the championship game because Hall wasn't big enough). But I'll be glad to check back with you in February or so and see if you have any juco names by then who have shown what you want to see. Meanwhile, you might think about juco bigs who (a) by now HAVE established themselves as inside forces -- they can be seniors; that's fine -- and (b) could have been effectively recruited by WSU in place of the guys they now have. Talking about juco newcomers is a straw man.

In reality, you're just proving that it's easy to be a critic. You have a pet issue that bothers you and so you complain about it when the occasion arises, but you don't have any concrete suggestion as to what could or should have been done differently, in whatever recruiting cycle.

2. You and others have jumped to the conclusion that this year's Shocks are better suited to blowing away the MVC than tournament teams. Maybe; maybe not -- but at this point it's hardly clear that's the case. And in any event, what about last year's poor shot blockers from Florida who made it just as far as the "too small" Final Four Shockers did the year before? How was that possible? And why can't this year's Shockers do the same thing, especially after a season of development for their several guys taller than 6-4?

I think you did get it right about changing the focus from recruiting primarily jucos or transfers as posts to aiming at high schoolers instead. But I don't agree at all that this season is doomed to be a disappointment for lack of inside presence. It's way too early to jump to that conclusion.

[Play Angry]

Thank goodness we've arrived at a vague consensus that this year's post depth is, in fact, not as good as last season's at this point. By analyzing this thread in considerable detail, it appears this is because we did not replace last year's seniors with centers ready to contribute at the same level immediately.

Whew. Glad that's been established and bravo to all the gutsy folks who had the huevos to take such a courageous stand and point this out.

[Dave Stalwart]

Thank goodness we've arrived at a vague consensus that this year's post depth is, in fact, not as good as last season's at this point. By analyzing this thread in considerable detail, it appears this is because we did not replace last year's seniors with centers ready to contribute at the same level immediately.

Whew. Glad that's been established and bravo to all the gutsy folks who had the huevos to take such a courageous stand and point this out.

Blame Marshall. He gets better every year so we start expecting to get better every year, too. I wouldn't even say my expectations are too high. In all honesty, I really think Marshall will have our freshman bigs playing beyond freshman level very soon. I dont actually think we are going to have a problem at all. He's doing what he always does, which is win. The team is only going to get better.