An Informal Poll or What Is Your Guess

[Jhook89]

Looks like 3G is in the top 10!

[another shocker]

Looks like 3G is in the top 10!

not too shabby. but, alas, he'll probably be #10 or #9, when, in fact, he is as good as any coach in the country. 35-0 start preceded by a final four run- no let up in sight.

'shockers should also be ranked top-4 next preseason, btw. c'mere, duke- any time.

[Royals85]

12. Jim Boeheim - Syracuse
11. Sean Miller - Arizona

I don't see the argument for Miller being higher than Boeheim.

The list wasn't created by a couple guys sitting around making arguments directly comparing coaches head to head.

Per ESPN "we asked a panel of nearly 100 ESPN writers, editors, broadcasters and researchers to rate college basketball coaches on all aspects of running a program, on a scale of 1-10. (The crucial distinction here is that the prompt was not career-oriented. This isn't about legacy. It's all about the present.) We compiled their scores and ranked the names."

That said, I am surprised to see that Beilein and Bo Ryan will be ranked ahead of Boeheim/Miller.

Personally, Boeheim has been the "elite" coach I dislike the most. To me he represents everything that is wrong with Top 5 conference programs. Traditionally he might schedule the weakest non-con opponents in the entire nation. Even with playing in the occasional Maui Invitational and being forced into games due to the Big East/SEC challenge and now the ACC/Big 10 challenge, Kenpom says his non-con SOS has been in the range of 210-290 each of the last 5 years.

The argument for Boeheim is that he made an Elite 8 in 2012 and a Final 4 in 2013. The argument against would be that in the last 10 years he's won the reg season conf title only twice, and hasn't won a post season conf tournament since Tyler Ennis was in grade school. Fortunately for Boeheim, Carmelo Anthony was born in NY and was able to win Boeheim his single national title in his nearly 40 years of coaching at Syracuse. I know ESPN is looking at the present, but if you look at his entire career, on average he makes an Elite 8 about once every 6-7 seasons and a Final 4 once a decade.

With Miller, at least he's proven he can win at both the mid-major and BCS level (made an E8 & Sweet 16 at Xavier). He's made it to the Elite Eight 3 out of the last 7 years. One of the major aspects of "running a program" is recruiting, and recently Miller has shown he's the 2nd or 3rd best recruiter in the nation after Calipari and maybe Self.

[Royals85]

20. Matta
19. Wright
18. Fisher
17. Few
16. Williams
15. Hoiberg
14. Bennett
13. Smart
12. Boeheim
11. Miller

The remaining top 10:

Beilein
Calipari
Donovan
Izzo
Krzyzewski
Marshall
Ollie
Pitino
Ryan
Self

[WSUwatcher]

It would be scary to see what Marshall could do with a couple McD all americans.

Gene Smithson did pretty well when he had one, and with all due respect to Smithson I believe Marshall is a better coach.

Of course, wasn't Perry Ellis a McDonald's A-A? And some posters have argued that Ellis wouldn't have made WSU all that much better because of the presence of Hall and Early, who I suspect were not burger boys coming out of high school. So who knows? I personally would have liked to see how Marshall would have incorporated Ellis into last year's Shocks, but if he had been here one of the other bigs on the current roster wouldn't be, and I like WSU's roster quite a bit as it is.

The real key, obviously, is how you play once you show up, not how many stars you're given beforehand. (You see that in football, too -- Johnny Manziel was a three-star from a small-town school in Texas.) Marshall does indeed seem to be a superior talent evaluator, and to do a good job of coaching up his guys, so maybe a couple of years from now a large, still-growing PF like Eric Hamilton will be a better player than lots of guys who started out more highly acclaimed. That's good enough for me.

Edit: Still like your remaining list, Royals. I'll guess Ryan for #10 to start next week, or maybe Ollie, with the other one at #9.

[Shocker85]

The remaining top 10:

Beilein
Calipari
Donovan
Izzo
Krzyzewski
Marshall
Ollie
Pitino
Ryan
Self

At this point, there are going to be some 'Elite Program' snobs that go freakin' BALLISTIC when Marshall is slotted in 1-10 and they come to the realization he is ranked ahead of their coach. Eff 'em.

--'85.

[Royals85]

Edit: Still like your remaining list, Royals. I'll guess Ryan for #10 to start next week, or maybe Ollie, with the other one at #9.

Once they got past #21 I was very confident with who would be the remaining top 20, but it's been impossible to predict the order of those top 20 coaches. Matta, Boeheim, and Sean Miller all lower than I expected.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

The list wasn't created by a couple guys sitting around making arguments directly comparing coaches head to head.

Per ESPN "we asked a panel of nearly 100 ESPN writers, editors, broadcasters and researchers to rate college basketball coaches on all aspects of running a program, on a scale of 1-10. (The crucial distinction here is that the prompt was not career-oriented. This isn't about legacy. It's all about the present.) We compiled their scores and ranked the names."

It doesn't matter. Each voter decided individually who to rank in what order. To make such a list, you might start out with a general idea where you want to rank a coach, but ultimately, you have to put coaches head to head and say "I choose this guy", thus placing him higher on the list than the other guy. The only way Miller ended up higher on the final list was by the majority of voters individually ranking Miller ahead of Boeheim. By questioning the final ranking, I acknowledge that some individual voters had Boeheim ranked higher. However, the majority went with Miller, and I think it is a valid question to ask, "What were they thinking?"

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

An interesting upcoming test. Where does Coach K rank?

Coach K
2012: 2 Seed, First round exit
2013: 2 Seed, Elite 8
2014: 3 Seed, First round exit

Based on ESPN's criteria, there is no way to justify coach K in the top 5. In fact, it is hard to rank him ahead of Boeheim who already showed up at #12.

Boeheim
2012: 1 Seed, Elite 8
2013: 4 Seed, Final Four
2014: 3 Seed, Round of 32

In the last 3 years, Syracuse has won 8 NCAA games, Duke has won 3. Seeds have been very similar.

I think Coach K will benefit from some "career consideration" while the pollsters followed the "recency rules" more exactly with other coaches.

[Cdizzle]

An interesting upcoming test. Where does Coach K rank?

Coach K
2012: 2 Seed, First round exit
2013: 2 Seed, Elite 8
2014: 3 Seed, First round exit

Based on ESPN's criteria, there is no way to justify coach K in the top 5. In fact, it is hard to rank him ahead of Boeheim who already showed up at #12.

Boeheim
2012: 1 Seed, Elite 8
2013: 4 Seed, Final Four
2014: 3 Seed, Round of 32

In the last 3 years, Syracuse has won 8 NCAA games, Duke has won 3. Seeds have been very similar.

I think Coach K will benefit from some "career consideration" while the pollsters followed the "recency rules" more exactly with other coaches.

Yep. I've been waiting to see where they place Coach K. Losing to 15 and 14 seeds in 2 of the last 3 seasons does not look good in the context of this poll. Duke also has not won its league the past 4 years. While that's no shame in the ACC, when combined with the tournament performance I don't see it screaming current Top 5 coach, either.

[WSUwatcher]

Interesting indeed. Coach K is the highest paid coach by far, and the conventional wisdom seems to regard him as the best -- but that's obviously a "complete resume" type assessment. How loosely will the voters interpret "current performance" when it comes to placing him, and how much will they be influenced by things that really can't be legitimately described as "current" performance?

[Royals85]

However, the majority went with Miller, and I think it is a valid question to ask, "What were they thinking?"

2014 Kenpom: AZ #2 - Cuse #16.

On top of that Miller is lining up top 5 recruiting classes one after another. Anyone who's been paying attention can see Miller is building a beast of a program out west.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Royals85,

ESPN has Arizona's upcoming recruiting class at #7. Syracuse at #23. Advantage Miller, true, but Miller isn't quite top 5 as you mentioned, and Boeheim isn't too shabby himself.

2012: Arizona was outside the top 50 and missed the NCAA tournament altogether in Miller's 3rd year as head coach. Syracuse was a 1 seed that made the Elite 8.
2013: Arizona was a 6 seed that made the Sweet 16. Syracuse was a 4 seed that made the Final 4.
2014: Up until the last month of the season, both teams were neck-and-neck for #1 in the country. Arizona finished well and Syracuse sort of tanked.

I know this poll is about "what have you done for me lately", but it seems like only a "recruiting junkie" who is zeroing in on the most recent of the most recent could place Miller ahead of Boeheim.

Even more so, as I mentioned in a previous post, if they are going to be that focused on the very recent past, Coach K has no business being in the top 10, and more specifically, ahead of either of these guys.

[another shocker]

Gene Smithson did pretty well when he had one, and with all due respect to Smithson I believe Marshall is a better coach.

Of course, wasn't Perry Ellis a McDonald's A-A? And some posters have argued that Ellis wouldn't have made WSU all that much better because of the presence of Hall and Early, who I suspect were not burger boys coming out of high school. So who knows? I personally would have liked to see how Marshall would have incorporated Ellis into last year's Shocks, but if he had been here one of the other bigs on the current roster wouldn't be, and I like WSU's roster quite a bit as it is.

The real key, obviously, is how you play once you show up, not how many stars you're given beforehand. (You see that in football, too -- Johnny Manziel was a three-star from a small-town school in Texas.) Marshall does indeed seem to be a superior talent evaluator, and to do a good job of coaching up his guys, so maybe a couple of years from now a large, still-growing PF like Eric Hamilton will be a better player than lots of guys who started out more highly acclaimed. That's good enough for me.

Edit: Still like your remaining list, Royals. I'll guess Ryan for #10 to start next week, or maybe Ollie, with the other one at #9.

he signed three mcdonald's all-americans: carr, sherrod, dreiling, all from wichita. a big reason why they were ranked #1 preseason by sport magazine (probation by december).

[1972Shocker]

I conducted my own personal poll of one (very scientific BTW). I ask myself if I could have my pick of a Head Coach to lead the Shocker program who would I choose. It really didn't take much thought. Coach Marshall is the man I would want. We are so very blessed to have him leading the way for the Shocks.