Sports Daily Question - does WSU have any influence in the MVC Now with CU Gone?

[MoValley John]

Here is my point in a nutshell. Well, a long drawn out nutshell. What is the annual payout from the Valley to each school? If its less than a million per school, you can't call that welfare. It is a drop in a very large bucket. The smallest athletic budget in the Valley is several million. Even a million dollar payout to Drake or Evansville is hardly worth investing several more millions to hopefully recoup one lousy million back. If you are Wichita State, that million dollar payout isn't just a small drop, its practically meaningless.

My point, there aren't schools counting on Valley "welfare" they are doing what they can to keep athletics running when the "Big Five" institutions in their states would just assume they shut down. The Valley should be working much harder at increasing revenue streams, not only from TV, but from sponsorships, associations, events, marketing and increased competition. This would build the conference and force out those not willing to improve.

What schools in the Valley currently receive is hardly welfare, it doesn't even begin to offset losses. Like I said in my OP, I used to believe in the "welfare" model to understand the investment gaps in the Valley. In reality, that is very over simplified and a fallacy. The fact of the matter is that these schools have limited revenue streams and cannot invest more without hope of a return. ALL of the Valley resources need to be focused at increasing revenue and adding revenue streams. With real revenue to fight over, schools will increase their commitments to athletics or move down. You look at potential replacement schools and they are hard to find as you can make as much in the Horizon and you dont have to play the Shockers twice.

[MoValley John]

Back to the question that is the title of the thread, no Wichita State has no influence on the league with CU gone. The reasons are simple, the very second Wichita State gets a better offer, they're gone. Why try to satisfy Wichita State when you know A. They're trapped in this conference and B. The moment a better opportunity becomes available, they will leave anyway. So, you pander to the other nine. They are your future, not Wichita State. Wichita State is a square peg in a round hole, no way to fix that.

Moreover, besides being a geographical outlier, there is very little in common with Wichita State and the other Valley schools. Wichita State is an odd duck in the Valley. It can't be fixed, so why would the conference even try? Until Wichita State has an option, they are stuck.

[DUShock]

Back to the question that is the title of the thread, no Wichita State has no influence on the league with CU gone. The reasons are simple, the very second Wichita State gets a better offer, they're gone. Why try to satisfy Wichita State when you know A. They're trapped in this conference and B. The moment a better opportunity becomes available, they will leave anyway. So, you pander to the other nine. They are your future, not Wichita State. Wichita State is a square peg in a round hole, no way to fix that.

Moreover, besides being a geographical outlier, there is very little in common with Wichita State and the other Valley schools. Wichita State is an odd duck in the Valley. It can't be fixed, so why would the conference even try? Until Wichita State has an option, they are stuck.

Sadly true.

[The Mad Hatter]

Back to the question that is the title of the thread, no Wichita State has no influence on the league with CU gone. The reasons are simple, the very second Wichita State gets a better offer, they're gone. Why try to satisfy Wichita State when you know A. They're trapped in this conference and B. The moment a better opportunity becomes available, they will leave anyway. So, you pander to the other nine. They are your future, not Wichita State. Wichita State is a square peg in a round hole, no way to fix that.

Moreover, besides being a geographical outlier, there is very little in common with Wichita State and the other Valley schools. Wichita State is an odd duck in the Valley. It can't be fixed, so why would the conference even try? Until Wichita State has an option, they are stuck.

I'm not saying that the league will think this way, but here are two reasons WSU should be given power even if we will bolt at first chance:

1. If WSU leaves, the Valley will need to replace us. If the MVC spends a bunch of time alienating schools that don't fit into a very narrow budget range and geographical location, they hamstring themselves in finding a replacement for WSU. No school the Valley brings in will bring the kind of revenue WSU does, but the Valley would be wise to try to add a school that at least has the chance to bring in revenue.

2. For as long as WSU is still around, we are the breadwinner for the conference. Doing things that make it harder for WSU to succeed only limits how much revenue the Valley gets off of WSU's success. It is as though the Valley has a goose that lays golden eggs and decides that the best way to approach the possibility of the goose leaving is to starve the goose right now. Even if they won't be around forever, equipping the breadwinner for success is far wiser than hamstringing them.

[MoValley John]

I'm not saying that the league will think this way, but here are two reasons WSU should be given power even if we will bolt at first chance:

1. If WSU leaves, the Valley will need to replace us. If the MVC spends a bunch of time alienating schools that don't fit into a very narrow budget range and geographical location, they hamstring themselves in finding a replacement for WSU. No school the Valley brings in will bring the kind of revenue WSU does, but the Valley would be wise to try to add a school that at least has the chance to bring in revenue.

2. For as long as WSU is still around, we are the breadwinner for the conference. Doing things that make it harder for WSU to succeed only limits how much revenue the Valley gets off of WSU's success. It is as though the Valley has a goose that lays golden eggs and decides that the best way to approach the possibility of the goose leaving is to starve the goose right now. Even if they won't be around forever, equipping the breadwinner for success is far wiser than hamstringing them.

You would think that, but you would be at least partially wrong. Wichita State will be successful with, or without the Valley. Wichita State will be successfulregardless of anything the Valley does. The Valley cannot starve the golden goose, the golden goose feeds itself. The Valley office and other schools know this. A great, but more extreme example may be Nebraska in the Big 12. Besides Texas and Oklahoma, Nebraska was the Big 12. The Big 12 did nothing for Nebraska, in fact, the divorce hurt both Nebraska and the Big 12. The only real winners were Mizzou and A&M. Nothing will be done to make the Shockers content, and to be honest, if I were in Elgin's shoes, I wouldn't try, either.

There are plenty of teams that could come in and be great Valley additions. Maybe not from day one, but the Summit and Horizon have several good options.

I will go off topic a bit, but look at UNO, I used to laugh at them, but I really believe in four or five years the Valley would love to have them. They are making serious investments in athletics including an arena that seats 7500 for jockey and 8000 for basketball, have indoor practice facilities and more. In fact, short of Wichita State, next year UNO's facilities will be on par, or better than every other Valley school.

Until another school or two decides to heavily invest in athletics, Wichita State is on an island.

[The Mad Hatter]

You would think that, but you would be at least partially wrong. Wichita State will be successful with, or without the Valley. Wichita State will be successfulregardless of anything the Valley does. The Valley cannot starve the golden goose, the golden goose feeds itself. The Valley office and other schools know this. A great, but more extreme example may be Nebraska in the Big 12. Besides Texas and Oklahoma, Nebraska was the Big 12. The Big 12 did nothing for Nebraska, in fact, the divorce hurt both Nebraska and the Big 12. The only real winners were Mizzou and A&M. Nothing will be done to make the Shockers content, and to be honest, if I were in Elgin's shoes, I wouldn't try, either.

There are plenty of teams that could come in and be great Valley additions. Maybe not from day one, but the Summit and Horizon have several good options.

I will go off topic a bit, but look at UNO, I used to laugh at them, but I really believe in four or five years the Valley would love to have them. They are making serious investments in athletics including an arena that seats 7500 for jockey and 8000 for basketball, have indoor practice facilities and more. In fact, short of Wichita State, next year UNO's facilities will be on par, or better than every other Valley school.

Until another school or two decides to heavily invest in athletics, Wichita State is on an island.

I agree with most of this, however, once WSU leaves what is there is make a school like UNO think that the Valley is an upgrade if they have driven off both CU and WSU and have consistently failed to enact policies that benefit schools willing to invest in athletics or who aren't located in Illinois?

[MoValley John]

Well, they could snap up a few more Indiana schools. There are about 10 crappy D-1 schools in Indiana that would love to call the Valley home. Plus, that's a bunch more Valley schools wearing those original Hoosier striped warmup pants!

[LandStander]

What I want to know is that when the MVC added schools like Evansville, Missouri state etc. did those schools increase their athletic budget or did the MVC take them as is? If nothing's changed and they don't want to add to the MVC name then they shoul find schools that do.

I love the valley.... 10 years ago and before that they added a great history to college basketball, now they're just an after thought. We need a commish who wants to bring the prestige back to the valley. If not? That's why so many wsu fans want to split. Especially if the NCAA is going to change in the future.

[Aargh]

The Valley has one name brand team. College basketball fans are pretty accustomed to watching "their" teams beat up on other teams. They like to watch teams rack up huge win/loss differentials. Right now, college basketball fans will watch WSU.

The Valley could put a TV package together that would get national attention, but that package would have WSU in about every game. WSU vs. Evansville will get a national audience. Drake vs. Bradley will get friends, family, and girlfriends watching.

Packaging an MVC TV deal that features WSU and includes other games to see teams fighting for 2nd and 3rd would get more money to the Valley and actually increase awareness of the Valley. Teams fighting for 2nd and 3rd would get larger national audiences than they are getting now.

The Valley can take advantage of WSU's current success to provide more resources to the rest of the Valley. I think ESPN would gladly have the Shox on once a week. The F4, the undefeated regular season, the Baker/VanVleet small town stories - WSU has TV gold waiting to be claimed.

To maximize TV revenues, the conference would get WSU about 15 major TV games and the rest of the conference would get 1 or 2 games - primarily against WSU. I think the other Valley schools would veto that type of arrangement - even if it gave them additional revenue.

[Rlh04d]

Our position is even more weaken by the fact that one would have to assume that the MVC knows we will be gone in a heartbeat whenever a decent conference offers us an invitation.

So, from their standpoint, why wouldn't they do whatever will benefit/please the majority of their other members in the long run?

This.

Our success has marginalized us. Why cater to WSU's interests? If there is an opportunity for us to leave for a bigger conference, we'll take it, regardless of what concessions the MVC gives us.

And if there isn't an opportunity to leave for a bigger conference, why make any concessions for us? What can we do for the conference other than what we're currently doing?

Catering to WSU's interests does nothing for the MVC now. The interest of the MVC, currently, should be to exploit WSU's brand for the betterment of the teams that will be left around should we leave.

[Rlh04d]

We need a commish who wants to bring the prestige back to the valley. If not? That's why so many wsu fans want to split. Especially if the NCAA is going to change in the future.

This is what gets me.

It's amazing to me how Elgin has been the commish for 26 years. The Valley has, outside of a brief burst in the mid-2000s, been on a pretty steady decline for his entire run. How do you keep your job in such a cutthroat, driven business when you've managed the conference into the ground?

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

MoValley John, excellent work. In fact, this entire thread has been an excellent read.

[Kung Wu]

Without WSU, the MVC is at (or possibly below) the level of the Horizon League. I think the conference office and the members of the conference are aware of that. Whether WSU has any influence in the conference is dependent on where the rest of the schools in the conference want to be.

But the leadership hasn't done anything to indicate that they care where their standing is relative to other conferences, have they? The younger Elgin at least _tried_ to do something (e.g. bracket busters and men's basketball minimum scheduling requirements). But the older Elgin hasn't really done squat ever since the realignment started exploding. There's no longer a vision for being anything more than what we are.

[Kung Wu]

Here is my point in a nutshell. Well, a long drawn out nutshell. What is the annual payout from the Valley to each school? If its less than a million per school, you can't call that welfare. It is a drop in a very large bucket. The smallest athletic budget in the Valley is several million. Even a million dollar payout to Drake or Evansville is hardly worth investing several more millions to hopefully recoup one lousy million back. If you are Wichita State, that million dollar payout isn't just a small drop, its practically meaningless.

My point, there aren't schools counting on Valley "welfare" they are doing what they can to keep athletics running when the "Big Five" institutions in their states would just assume they shut down. The Valley should be working much harder at increasing revenue streams, not only from TV, but from sponsorships, associations, events, marketing and increased competition. This would build the conference and force out those not willing to improve.

What schools in the Valley currently receive is hardly welfare, it doesn't even begin to offset losses. Like I said in my OP, I used to believe in the "welfare" model to understand the investment gaps in the Valley. In reality, that is very over simplified and a fallacy. The fact of the matter is that these schools have limited revenue streams and cannot invest more without hope of a return. ALL of the Valley resources need to be focused at increasing revenue and adding revenue streams. With real revenue to fight over, schools will increase their commitments to athletics or move down. You look at potential replacement schools and they are hard to find as you can make as much in the Horizon and you dont have to play the Shockers twice.

You know, you are on to something! Our conference doesn't sell any cheerleader calenders, for example!!

[SB Shock]

Would the MVC moving the tournament to Chicago be a middle finger to WSU?