NBC Sports All American Team

[ShockerMas]

I think we should actually wait for Cle's career to be over before we debate whether he should have his jersey retired. For example he could go to the NCAA tournament get on a huge hot streak, win the title, and get Most Outstanding Player of the tournament. That would certainly be something that would set him apart from any other Shocker before him (JUCO or not). On the other hand he could lay an egg and WSU falls in the round of 32 it might hurt some people's view of him.

Of course these 2 scenarios are complete opposites and I wouldn't necessarily count on either happening, I'm just saying we need to see final numbers, accomplishments, and accolades (and see the exact requirements for jersey retirement) before we make up our minds completely.

[wufan]

I personally think that he has done enough to retire his jersey, but that it needs to sit for a while so we can soak it in first. Not a first ballot guy, but will definitely make the rafters.

[ShockTalk]

Questions regarding "what qualifies to have one's jersey retired" at Wichita State.

It seems that some sort of "All American" status may be a qualifier as all, so far, have been one, even if only loosely so. Should this be a qualifier? In many cases, All American status is related to 1) Team's reasonable success and 2) Better supporting cast than most years. If teams start to regularly make deep runs in the Dance, you may end up with a lot of "All Americans", just not necessarily 1st teamers or one's that make teams that are part of the NCAA list that make up the Consensus All American Team. We have some of those already, so has a precedence been set?

What about the player who may have very well been as good as those in the above paragraph, but lack the supporting cast. The X-Man made All American without #1 and #2 above, but needed to set a record (leading the NCAA is scoring and rebounding) to achieve that status. Yes, his '85 team had Sherrod, but the rest was either young or not that much of an impact player. What would a Warren Armstrong, Jason Perez, or Cheese Johnson have done on a 1964-65, 1980-81, 2005-06, 2012-13, or 2013-14 team?

Does there need to be NBA success? While I don't believe it should be qualifier, I do believe it can help make a case for a player who may not have had great "numbers" due to playing on a strong, balanced team or who may not have gotten All American attention due to the teams they played on. NBA success is a trait of 4 of the 5 numbers hanging in the rafters. I have no problem with Littleton not having this success for multiple reasons. NBA success also seems to go hand in hand with All American status. So, maybe it does help draw a line in the sand.

Obviously, a player representing himself and WSU to high, quality standards should be a given.

Conclusion. I think we need to be very, very selective on who gets their jersey retired. So far, the committee has seemed to do this very well, with maybe one exception missing. Also, I don't believe Levingston gets his number retired without success in the NBA. I think that countered any argument regarding him playing only 3 years. We are now discussing the merits of a JUCO player who will play only 2 years. Something else to think about: What if we get a one-and-done player or gone in two? I think different, but fair, standards may need to be considered players who don't play 4 years. Lastly, remember that we do have a Hall of Fame. You do not want too many numbers retired that it takes away from the significance of the Hall.

[im4wsu]

Questions regarding "what qualifies to have one's jersey retired" at Wichita State.

It seems that some sort of "All American" status may be a qualifier as all, so far, have been one, even if only loosely so. Should this be a qualifier? In many cases, All American status is related to 1) Team's reasonable success and 2) Better supporting cast than most years. If teams start to regularly make deep runs in the Dance, you may end up with a lot of "All Americans", just not necessarily 1st teamers or one's that make teams that are part of the NCAA list that make up the Consensus All American Team. We have some of those already, so has a precedence been set?

What about the player who may have very well been as good as those in the above paragraph, but lack the supporting cast. The X-Man made All American without #1 and #2 above, but needed to set a record (leading the NCAA is scoring and rebounding) to achieve that status. Yes, his '85 team had Sherrod, but the rest was either young or not that much of an impact player. What would a Warren Armstrong, Jason Perez, or Cheese Johnson have done on a 1964-65, 1980-81, 2005-06, 2012-13, or 2013-14 team?

Does there need to be NBA success? While I don't believe it should be qualifier, I do believe it can help make a case for a player who may not have had great "numbers" due to playing on a strong, balanced team or who may not have gotten All American attention due to the teams they played on. NBA success is a trait of 4 of the 5 numbers hanging in the rafters. I have no problem with Littleton not having this success for multiple reasons. NBA success also seems to go hand in hand with All American status. So, maybe it does help draw a line in the sand.

Obviously, a player representing himself and WSU to high, quality standards should be a given.

Conclusion. I think we need to be very, very selective on who gets their jersey retired. So far, the committee has seemed to do this very well, with maybe one exception missing. Also, I don't believe Levingston gets his number retired without success in the NBA. I think that countered any argument regarding him playing only 3 years. We are now discussing the merits of a JUCO player who will play only 2 years. Something else to think about: What if we get a one-and-done player or gone in two? I think different, but fair, standards may need to be considered players who don't play 4 years. Lastly, remember that we do have a Hall of Fame. You do not want too many numbers retired that it takes away from the significance of the Hall.

Levingston and Carr had identical recognition in the "All American" polls, in 1982 and 1983, respectively. Each was 1st team Sporting News and 3rd team AP. Carr had 17.1 and 6.9; Cliff has 16.2 and 10.6. It is difficult to distinguish one from the other, IMHO.

[wufan]

Levingston and Carr had identical recognition in the "All American" polls, in 1982 and 1983, respectively. Each was 1st team Sporting News and 3rd team AP. Carr had 17.1 and 6.9; Cliff has 16.2 and 10.6. It is difficult to distinguish one from the other, IMHO.

Per Cliff's Shocker bio, he was a Basketball Times AA, 3rd team. No mention of the AP or Sporting news: http://www.goshockers.com/ViewArticl...?ATCLID=651297

Per Antoine's Shocker bio, he was a first team AA, no mention of source. http://www.goshockers.com/ViewArticl...&ATCLID=651074

[wufan]

Cliff had a three year average of 16.2 ppg and 10.2 rebounds. He was an All-MVC player twice.

Antoine had career averages of 17.1 ppg and 6.9 rebounds. He was an All-MVC selection three times.

Cleanthony has career averages of 14.8 ppg and 5.6 rebounds. He was an All-MVC selection twice.

While Early doesn't match the other two, he is in the same ballpark.

[ShockTalk]

Levingston and Carr had identical recognition in the "All American" polls, in 1982 and 1983, respectively. Each was 1st team Sporting News and 3rd team AP. Carr had 17.1 and 6.9; Cliff has 16.2 and 10.6. It is difficult to distinguish one from the other, IMHO.

I saw that as well in the WSU basketball history guide for All American honors. However, I didn't think that sounded right for a couple of reasons. First, Levingston and Carr were in the same class and didn't believe Cliff would get those accolades and Antoine not in 1982. Carr's All American status came in 1983. Second, the write up in the "1,000 Point" section on Cliff makes no mention of it, but does say that he was chosen 3rd team All American by Basketball Times (not a source used by the NCAA for Consensus AA).

So......http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l_america.html.

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_NC..._All-Americans

Found Carr in 1983, but Levingston only as Honorable Mention 1982 in Wiki, no mention in Basketball-Reference. I believe Cliff did also Playboys All American team if that counts. Didn't find anything regarding 1982 Sporting News All Americans. I think this has been a carry-over error for years on that page of the WSU Guide.

[FlyingWheat]

Not exactly the NBC award, but Cle was just named second team AA by USBWA:

http://www.sportswriters.net/usbwa/news/2014/allamerica140312.html

[ShockTalk]

Cliff had a three year average of 16.2 ppg and 10.2 rebounds. He was an All-MVC player twice.

Antoine had career averages of 17.1 ppg and 6.9 rebounds. He was an All-MVC selection three times.

Cleanthony has career averages of 14.8 ppg and 5.6 rebounds. He was an All-MVC selection twice.

While Early doesn't match the other two, he is in the same ballpark.

I agree. My post was not intended to keep Cle out, but believe different standards may be needed for 1 and 2 year players.

I could argue that if Cle had played 3 years like Cliff, it would have been his freshman through junior years and his "average numbers" would have been less than the average of his junior and senior years, thus the comparable numbers not as close to Carr and Levingston.

[ShockTalk]

Not exactly the NBC award, but Cle was just named second team AA by USBWA:

http://www.sportswriters.net/usbwa/n...ica140312.html

Actually, this is better than NBC. The USBWA is one of four lists used by the NCAA for Consensus All American status.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NC..._All-Americans

He is now a true All American.

[jocoshock]

Actually, this is better than NBC. The USBWA is one of four lists used by the NCAA for Consensus All American status.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NC..._All-Americans

He is now a true All American.

So, does this make the first time that WSU has had two players make All American in the same season (assuming Sporting News holds the same weight as USBWA)?

[ShockTalk]

So, does this make the first time that WSU has had two players make All American in the same season (assuming Sporting News holds the same weight as USBWA)?

I'd say it does hold the same weight as it, too, is one of the four. So, YES, YES, YES, YES.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

So, does this make the first time that WSU has had two players make All American in the same season (assuming Sporting News holds the same weight as USBWA)?

Yes, The Sporting News is one of the "official" All American lists, so both Fred and Cle are "official" All Americans. I think you're right--this is the first year with two.

[Play Angry]

Not exactly the NBC award, but Cle was just named second team AA by USBWA:

http://www.sportswriters.net/usbwa/n...ica140312.html

Amazing accomplishment for Cle!

[wufan]

Better make sure those rafters are capable of supporting a lot of banners!