NBC Sports All American Team

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

How many in Shocker History have led team to TWO Final Fours? If he gets 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team, this would remove any comparison.

If we get to Dallas, 11 should hang.

[wufan]

I think we should retire Fred and Cle together in about three years!

[60Shock]

I would not count out Baker in that scenario either. We will just have to wait and see what happens in this post season and the following two years.

We may have to build a rounder Roundhouse to handle all the banners.

[jdshock]

I think most on here have changed their minds about potentially retiring a juco's number. A while back it seemed like a lot were really opposed. It just seems silly, though. If cle had been a four year player, and he struggled for two years, and then had the junior and senior seasons he's had, he'd definitely get his number retired.

[shockmonster]

Give this year time to play out. It's not even over yet. You are jumping the gun. Maybe you're right and maybe not but now is not the time to debate anything.

[Kung Wu]

Don't discount Cotton either. Next year could be special for that soon to be senior. FVV is a near mortal lock for something hugely special. MVC POY three years in a row? WTF. There are just so many scenarios that can play out.

Is the NCAA Tourney here yet?

[Rlh04d]

I think most on here have changed their minds about potentially retiring a juco's number. A while back it seemed like a lot were really opposed. It just seems silly, though. If cle had been a four year player, and he struggled for two years, and then had the junior and senior seasons he's had, he'd definitely get his number retired.

Agreed.

And what if Cotton was an AA next season? Would anyone hold it against him that he averaged under 10 minutes a game his freshman season, so his success would effectively be based on three years?

I think people in general have a tendency to idealize the past so much that nothing can ever live up to it. It would be a shame to be looking at the greatest stretch in WSU history and only judge them relative to Rave/X's numbers.

[Blackmag]

We also need to remember that our players are playing under the Marshall system of team work and no one man is the team. We have three starters, Cle, Fred, and Ron who could easly avg. over 20pts a game on anotheir team. But this team doesn't play that way, and thats what makes us so hard to prepair against, and really Tekele could probably avg. 15 a game on anotheir team. Cle has the talent, he's one of the best to come through here for a long long time. If he had one more year, wow, would that be fun.

[60Shock]

Give this year time to play out. It's not even over yet. You are jumping the gun. Maybe you're right and maybe not but now is not the time to debate anything.

Oh, like we never, ever debate anything well in advance of it happening on this board? ??????????

[WSUwatcher]

Oh, like we never, ever debate anything well in advance of it happening on this board? ??????????

Indeed, 60. This whole thread belongs in a new Forum called Challenging Karma, where it would not be the first (nor the last, I suspect). Lots of hyperventilating going on here, although 34-0 can have that effect.

[im4wsu]

For lack of a better way to compare stats (there was no 3-pt line for the rafter guys and the stats I have do not show minutes played) of the five rafter guys and Cle, Ron, Fred and Tekele, I have calculated points per shot attempt and rebounds per shot attempt. I chose this to adjust somewhat for minutes played and percentage of the team's shots due to style of game and ability of teammates. Right or wrong, here are the results:

	Pts/FGA	Reb/FGA
Cleo	1.16	0.47
Xavier	1.36	0.86
Dave	1.43	0.62
Antoine	1.39	0.57
Cliff	1.33	0.87
Cleanthony	1.43	0.54
Tekele	1.29	0.62
Fred	1.38	0.49
Ron	1.44	0.43

I think a case could be made for all four guys. Without doing all the 1,000-point club members, some recent notables are Aubrey 1.18 pts/FGA; Jason Perez 1.25 and Cheese 1.34. Cheese reb/FGA was 0.49.

[wu_shizzle]

For me, I'd like to see you have a decent NBA career before we retire your number.

I have no problem if that player is a JuCo or not.

[Dan]

Disagree about the NBA, it has nothing to do with college performance. Some guys are just great college players, some guys flourish later in life. All American status (above honorable mention) should be a key criteria, coupled with individual career and/or team accomplishments. I have no idea what the actual criteria is, but it would be interesting to see.

[ShockerPrez]

Well. Cle may not be a lottery pick, but I believe he will be a very good NBA player.

[shockmonster]

Debate away 60. However, someone earlier jumped to conclusions that jerseys wouldn't be hung from the rafters because of a Juco player. Have we had a juco AA on a F4 team and possible F4 contender in the past? We are re-writing the rules this year and the year has to come to completion to determine the fate of our players and coach. For example if we win the National Championship, does anyone feel that someone from this team won't be honored? Once careers are ended, there could be several hanging from the rafters.