Ingredients for Shockers to be Recognized as a Perennial National Powerhouse

[martymoose]

3. Whose team won the 2011 NIT Championship;

You can remove this one...sure I loved winning the NIT that year, but no one outside of WSU remembers or cares. I don't have a clue who won it the last 2 years and don't care.

Marshall is doing an excellent job of putting us back on the map, but it's going to take more NCAA tournament wins to gain the respect our program deserves. Hopefully we can follow last season's run with at least an Elite 8 run this year.

[Shox21]

Just WIN and everything else takes care of itself. We do, however, have to keep Marshall happy even beyond Maggie's graduation.

[pie n eye]

I think there's too much emphasis placed on the number of stars a player is assigned. It's all about finding the right player for the program regardless of what recruiting experts think. How many stars did Ron Baker get?

[im4wsu]

A return to a S16 this year will be worth significantly more than making the E8 made at that point in time last year BECAUSE we're in the conversation the entire season, not a "will they get a nay-large bid?"

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

You mean hire Calipari?!?!?!

I jest. I agree with your 3 factors, but believe holding on to Marshall is a key. Not a must, but greatly reduce the risk.

The Valley no longer holds a candle to WCC. Gonzaga, BYU, St. Mary's and this year, they may not have a team finish less than a 200 RPI. The Valley may have 3 teams worse than 250 and I'm not seeing how this is going to improve.

LOL about Calipari. Dude can coach but funny how those wins and accomplishments get replaced with an asterisk a few years later...

Anyway, touche on the conferences. The WCC is absolutely much better than the MVC now. That hasn't always been the case, but the addition of BYU has made that conference light years better and Saint Mary's seems like they're always solid.

Another thing about conference affiliation. It's a little bit of the chicken or the egg scenario, but it's possible to be very good and well respected outside of a power conference (Gonzaga, Memphis). It's also possible to be a doormat if you're in a power conference (Nebraska, Auburn). So success and respect is not dependent on your conference. In WSU's situation, at this point it seems like our success will have to lead us to a better conference first, not the other way around.

[Good News]

Memphis, huh. I get the point from a long term view, NBA talent, name recognition, better conference, etc.

BUT.

When you look at it through a shorter term lens - which is fundamentally how the game is viewed by recruits who have no idea who Penny Hardaway is - Memphis is a program that should be trying to emulate US.

Unless I'm missing something and Memphis didn't just get their first win against a ranked team since Pastner replaced Cheatapari in 2009. How many has Marshall knocked off in that time frame?

[jocoshock]

Memphis, huh. I get the point from a long term view, NBA talent, name recognition, better conference, etc.

BUT.

When you look at it through a shorter term lens - which is fundamentally how the game is viewed by recruits who have no idea who Penny Hardaway is - Memphis is a program that should be trying to emulate US.

Unless I'm missing something and Memphis didn't just get their first win against a ranked team since Pastner replaced Cheatapari in 2009. How many has Marshall knocked off in that time frame?

Well you have missed that they are ranked 17th with just one loss and are a perennial top 25 team in spite of that record. And they did play for an NC under Calipari, so yes they belong in the conversation.

Their long term record of accomplishment before Calipari also exceeds that of WSUs, so the residual build up over the years puts them in that category, yes.

Looking it at it from a short term lense doesn't quality anyone for elite status.

Tournament History:
ESPN Stats and Information Department ranked Memphis as the 19th most successful basketball program from 1962 to 2012 in their annual 50 in 50 list.


Final Fours 3
Tournament Record 33-25
Championship Seasons None
Tournament Appearances 25
1955, 1956, 1962, 1973, 1976, 1982*, 1983*, 1984*, 1985*, 1986*, 1988, 1989, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008*, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013

More detail at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_Tigers_men's_basketball

[another shocker]

We need a string of Conference championships and a string of NCAA appearances.

We are well on our way. This will be the first time in Shocker history that WSU goes to the NCAA three years in a row.

WSU has been on the cusp for some time, in my view. Both the 2004 and 2005 teams could have/should have been invited to the tournament. Clearly the 2011 team should have. Obviously we've been close to the conf championship in a few of those years and inexplicably have never won in St Louis.

the team that lost to uni in the mvc tournament finals (2010) also should have gotten an ncaa invite imo.

[ShockTalk]

Those 3- and 4-star recruits that we get as freshmen, by the time they're seniors, would be the equivalent of the 4- and 5-star recruits that the elite programs get. So even though an elite program might get a one and done 5-star recruit, we can get a four or five and done 3-star recruit that's now a 5-star their senior year. (Note that I'm making the assumption that by their senior year they are as good as a 5-star freshman.)

I think you're missing my point. Throw out the 5 star players from the Top 100. You still have around 75 4 star players who, by and large, will be around 3 years, possibly 4. Successful teams land these players year in, year out. From this group in the 2014 class, Louisville has 4 players, Florida 3, Arizona 2. Many of the powerhouses Ohio St, Syracuse, UConn, Duke, Mich St all have 1 and they do this each year. Others we compare to: Xavier 3, BYU 2, SDSU 2, VCU 2, Gonzaga 1, UNLV 1.

Kentucky is the exception, not the rule to success. Most powerhouses have a mixture of senior/junior leadership (many past 4 star) with new 4 and 5 star players.

Marshall knows what he is looking for in a player and I'll guarantee you he has looked/recruited some of these higher ranked players. Holding on to Marshall, continued success and/or a better conference will lead us to those players, most of who will be here 3 or 4 years. This will increase our chances of making future deep runs in the Dance. HCGM has another weapon if needed: His success with JUCO players.

[WuShock16]

the team that lost to uni in the mvc tournament finals (2010) also should have gotten an ncaa invite imo.

That team also had some REALLY bad losses that year (at Evansville comes to mind). Yes, all the bubble teams have warts, so I don't want to get into a team-by-team comparison. My thought has always been to take care of your business so there is no doubt. The 2012 team took care of business and didn't have stupid losses, so when we got to Selection Sunday, we were speculating our seed, not whether or not we would/should be in.

[asiseeit]

An undefeated regular season and at least the final eight would do a lot quickly.

[jocoshock]

That team also had some REALLY bad losses that year (at Evansville comes to mind). Yes, all the bubble teams have warts, so I don't want to get into a team-by-team comparison. My thought has always been to take care of your business so there is no doubt. The 2012 team took care of business and didn't have stupid losses, so when we got to Selection Sunday, we were speculating our seed, not whether or not we would/should be in.

Same thing happened in 2011 when we won the NIT.

The margin for our teams were razaor thin back then. We had our opportunities to make the NCAA and we didn't take care of business. In retrospect, the NIT championship may have been the best thing to happen to the team in the Marshall era. It showed our players that we absolutely compete AND beat multiple BCS teams. That and #PLAYANGRY were watershed events that contributed mightily to our FF appearance last year.

[another shocker]

That team also had some REALLY bad losses that year (at Evansville comes to mind). Yes, all the bubble teams have warts, so I don't want to get into a team-by-team comparison. My thought has always been to take care of your business so there is no doubt. The 2012 team took care of business and didn't have stupid losses, so when we got to Selection Sunday, we were speculating our seed, not whether or not we would/should be in.

yeah, i think bob lolz proclaimed that wsu's worst loss ever. uni, a no-brainer ncaa team all year long, lost at ue the very next week. 'valley was underrated that year, yet again.

marshall said he liked the valley because multiple ncaa bids were possible, yet wsu has been screwed over a couple of times. whew.. thank goodness he's still here.. and as long as he's here, the shockers will probably avg 25 wins per season from here on out. so that's it- keep marshall here. as long as marshall is here, wichita state will be the #1 road team in the country, or thereabouts. build that up for another, say, five years, after this one. just keep marshall in doo dah wichita.

[Steeleshocker]

yeah, i think bob lolz proclaimed that wsu's worst loss ever. uni, a no-brainer ncaa team all year long, lost at ue the very next week. 'valley was underrated that year, yet again.

marshall said he liked the valley because multiple ncaa bids were possible, yet wsu has been screwed over a couple of times. whew.. thank goodness he's still here.. and as long as he's here, the shockers will probably avg 25 wins per season from here on out. so that's it- keep marshall here. as long as marshall is here, wichita state will be the #1 road team in the country, or thereabouts. build that up for another, say, five years, after this one. just keep marshall in doo dah wichita.

I think what is important about the valley is that Marshall doesn't have to win the tournament to get a dance invitation. While the league is certainly circling the drain, it is still true that we don't HAVE to win the league tournament just to get in.

[Shocker1976]

You mean hire Calipari?!?!?!

I jest. I agree with your 3 factors, but believe holding on to Marshall is a key. Not a must, but greatly reduce the risk.

The Valley no longer holds a candle to WCC. Gonzaga, BYU, St. Mary's and this year, they may not have a team finish less than a 200 RPI. The Valley may have 3 teams worse than 250 and I'm not seeing how this is going to improve.

IMO both the WCC and Mountain West conferences are superior to the MVC and represent the type of conference the Shockers should join not just for basketball but all of the Shockers' athletic teams. However, the conference with whom I hope the WSU AD is negotiating is the American Athletic Conference. The AAC is in its first year of existence and will lose Louisville to the ACC at the end of this year; opening up a great opportunity for the expansion minded AAC to capture both the Shockers and the Billikens of SLU. As Tulane, Tulsa and Eastern Carolina will join the AAC next year, adding the Shockers and Billikens will strengthen the conference and establish natural East/West Division rivalries.

East - Connecticut, East Carolina, Rutgers, South Florida, Temple, Tulane and UCF

West - Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis, SMU, St Louis, Tulsa and WSU

AAC membership will provide the Shockers with exposure to the big East Coast and Southern TV markets and their high school athletes; large potential TV revenue deals; re-establish rivalries with Cincinnati, SLU and Tulsa; provide new quality annual games with UConn, Memphis, SMU, Houston, South Florida, Rutgers, Temple, Tulane and UCF; and, very importantly, visibility to all those voters in the AP Poll (USA Today voting NCAA coaches already know about WSU).