Early #7 Wing

[wufan]

Whether we make the S16 or not, if Cle makes some AA lists, any reason his number won't be retired?

Will his JUCO background prevent him from being honored?

[BOBB]

Will his JUCO background prevent him from being honored?

Hopefully. Regardless of what this year brings I would retire Jason Perez, Toure Murry, or any other 4 year contributor before a JUCO gets a retired jersery. I'm thinking a 2 time AA would be the requirement.

[jdshock]

Hopefully. Regardless of what this year brings I would retire Jason Perez, Toure Murry, or any other 4 year contributor before a JUCO gets a retired jersery. I'm thinking a 2 time AA would be the requirement.

Really? Let's test how serious that regardless is: even if Cle lead WSU to a national championship and he won the Naismith?

[WuShock16]

There is a difference between a retired number (which is what we have) and a retired jersey. Seeing as there are only 30 numbers, you have to be very selective with the criteria or otherwise you'll run out of numbers for current players. We also have the Shocker Sports Hall of Fame, so I'd say that adding "retired jerseys" might be a bit redundant.

[wufan]

I don't find JUCO status as an issue, but some obviously do. Perez and Murry were not AAs and are thus ineligable.

[BOBB]

Really? Let's test how serious that regardless is: even if Cle lead WSU to a national championship and he won the Naismith?

If that happens I would be all for a retired jersey, key to the city, key to the executive bathroom, lifetime membership at Genesis and $100 gift certificate to Granite City.

[Shoxfan11]

If that happens I would be all for a retired jersey, key to the city, key to the executive bathroom, lifetime membership at Genesis and $100 gift certificate to Granite City.

Don't forget free Spangles mudslides for life.

[WuShock16]

Really? Let's test how serious that regardless is: even if Cle lead WSU to a national championship and he won the Naismith?

I cannot even fathom what that would feel like. At the Final Four on the day of the Louisville, I told my mom that while she has seen me crazy, anxious, and nervous before about games, if we would beat Louisville, Championship Monday quite possibly could be the L O N G E S T day of my life and that I was going to be a total basket case throughout the day.

Damn, we were so close.

[BOBB]

Don't forget free Spangles mudslides for life.

Shame on me!

[Play Angry]

Eh, Cliff Levingston left early after 3 seasons, never made 1st, 2nd or 3rd Team AP All American (his "qualifying" selection was as a 3rd Team AA by Basketball Times, which was about the third or fourth most respected list at the time...comparable to who knows what now), led us to 1 NCAA Tournament, and made 0 All Tournament teams.

If Cleanthony makes an AA list this year there is no way he isn't a superior candidate to Cliff.


Edit: The 4 publications used in 1982 to make up the consensus All America teams were the AP, UPI, NABC and USBWA lists, so it looks Basketball Times was at best the 5th most prominent publication putting out a team. Also, the magazine was just 4 years old at the time. Probably slightly less meaningful than a nod from Athlon Sports and slightly more meaningful than toilet paper.

[shocksrbest]

He should be named Oug McErmott.

Or Dug McKermit

[The Mad Hatter]

Eh, Cliff Levingston left early after 3 seasons, never made 1st, 2nd or 3rd Team AP All American (his "qualifying" selection was as a 3rd Team AA by Basketball Times, which was about the third or fourth most respected list at the time...comparable to who knows what now), led us to 1 NCAA Tournament, and made 0 All Tournament teams.

If Cleanthony makes an AA list this year there is no way he isn't a superior candidate to Cliff.


Edit: The 4 publications used in 1982 to make up the consensus All America teams were the AP, UPI, NABC and USBWA lists, so it looks Basketball Times was at best the 5th most prominent publication putting out a team. Also, the magazine was just 4 years old at the time. Probably slightly less meaningful than a nod from Athlon Sports and slightly more meaningful than toilet paper.

1. If your argument is that Cliff doesn't meet the standard, that is a reason to argue against his inclusion, not for the inclusion of others.

2. Both Cliff and Antoine have the same qualifications, which are 1st team All-American by Sporting News and 3rd team All-American by AP. The only person to receive All-American honors outside of those with numbers retired is Paul Miller, and his honorable mention is a lower recognition than anyone who has been honored.

3. Cleanthony making an AA list does not inherently make him a better candidate that Cliff (any more than Paul Miller is a better candidate than Cliff). Here are Cliff's numbers over 3 seasons compared to Cle's 1st:

	Points Per Game	Rebounds Per Game	Field Goal Percentage
Cliff
Freshman	15.8	10.1	.546
Sophomore	18.5	11.4	.544
Junior	13.9	10.2	.519
Cleanthony
Junior	13.9	5.4	.455

You'll pardon me if I don't consider it a low bar that a guy who averaged a double-double every year (including as a freshman) has his number hanging in the rafters.

If Cle has a huge year this season, I am perfectly happy to have a serious discussion about retiring a number, but Junior year, for all of the team's success, is actually behind the curve of the players whose numbers are retired. He will need to do something special to merit inclusion in that group.

[Play Angry]

2. Both Cliff and Antoine have the same qualifications, which are 1st team All-American by Sporting News and 3rd team All-American by AP. The only person to receive All-American honors outside of those with numbers retired is Paul Miller, and his honorable mention is a lower recognition than anyone who has been honored.

Respectfully, please link me to anything showing Cliff on any AP All American list besides being one of 60 Honorable Mention players.

He does not show up here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l_america.html or here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_NCAA_Men's_Basketball_All-Americans

The only mention on GoShockers.com involves the aforementioned 3rd team selection by Basketball Times: http://www.goshockers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7500&ATCLID=651297

I may just be missing it but would like to see it. Same goes for Sporting News. If you are referring to the WSU media guide from 5ish years ago, I believe that was acknowledged in the past as a typo and was a one-time error.

[1972Shocker]

Not to open an old can of worms but my own personal standard for having your number retired is that you have to be a better candidate than Warren (Armstrong) Jabali was based on his stats at a time the Valley was much tougher and simply based on the basketball player he was.

Cle doesn't make it in my view (nor does Cliff for that matter) but I hope Cle has a great senior year and finds himself in the Shocker Hall of Fame down the road.

[WstateU]

Respectfully, please link me to anything showing Cliff on any AP All American list besides being one of 60 Honorable Mention players.

He does not show up here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l_america.html or here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_NCAA_Men's_Basketball_All-Americans

The only mention on GoShockers.com involves the aforementioned 3rd team selection by Basketball Times: http://www.goshockers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7500&ATCLID=651297

I may just be missing it but would like to see it. Same goes for Sporting News. If you are referring to the WSU media guide from 5ish years ago, I believe that was acknowledged in the past as a typo and was a one-time error.

This has to be worth something? :)

1981-82 Playboy All-American Team