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Monmouth (0-4) at Wichita State (3-0) Game Discussion: Nov 18 (Mon)

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  • Originally posted by molly jabali View Post
    Another night of watching grandkid basketball , west side of Wichita version, so I'm monitoring score on the phone... Kennedy DID say in pregame their best player was now back and not to sleep on him...

    to the comments about looking at an 0-3 record and thinking it makes for an easy game... THESE Shockers are not so good that they can ever do that...

    wish we would not make drug references with players even in jest...

    Mills drives me crazy... I don't relate to that much mildmanneredness
    Ask them, were they in your shoes, your son, your grandson, what would they do? Then remind them family comes first.


    I didn't hear Mike, but I assume #2 Jaret Valencia was the player to whom he was referring. Valencia played a few minutes via Rutgers in his first action of the season and while he's certainly a cog in their machine, and his inclusion limits their reliance on a (much) less talented and experienced other player, he's not their best player. He does certainly make them better.

    I'm not going back and watching this debacle again. There is nothing to be gained from that exercise.

    Here's our post situation:

    Ronnie DeGray 6'6" more of a 3 than a 4 but for us, a stretch 4 as much as anything. Fell in the first half, hurt his wrist, held it like it was broken for the remaining time he was in the game, after a brief stint in the 2nd half (and my wife and I basically screaming at Todd to take him out of the game) went to the locker room and was not cleared to return. Learning there is a slight fracture in his hand/wrist area today will not surprise me in the slightest. I certainly hope he's ok. If he doesn't play Friday, we're screwed for the season.
    Zane Meeks 6'9" definitely a stretch 4, but hasn't seen the floor yet. We need him badly, but are unlikely to see him in the near future.
    Quincy Ballard 6'11" elite defender, did not dress last night. If this is lasting, and to be clear, he didn't seem to be bothered one bit by it, obviously we're toast.
    Matej Bosnjak 6'9" (honestly seems to be shrinking to me) 5.

    That's it. 4 post men. 2 didn't dress. 1 played maybe 1/4 of the game effectively. You don't win basketball games with short, small teams. Not at this level.

    There may come a day where we realize the Monmouth end goal was off last night. Combined 14-32 FTs on that end. Never even heard of that kind of % on volume at the collegiate level.

    If they don't go 6-18 from the line (are you freaking kidding me) we lose.

    If Corey doesn't save our bacon late, we lose.


    Ok, important disclaimer. I don't know how much we practice running our stuff without Quincy, but it's less than with Quincy, by a ton. And even less, without Q and Matej. AND even less without all of them, which was the case for much of the last 27 minutes of the game (when Matej was winded). We had guys playing out of position and it showed a bunch especially on help defense.

    And I'm kind of ok with that, at least I can understand and dismiss the struggles. And while the challenges are also there on the offensive side, I am NOT OK with the way we approached that end of the game. 1 on 1 bullshit pull up guarded 3s and 1 on 2, 3 or 4 takes to the cup.....unacceptable. I know that's a problem accentuated when you have a lot of transfers, but IDC. Be better.

    I can hardly remember a "good" shot at the goal other than strong takes for layups or dunks. Corey's open 3 near the end was wide open and a great shot. Otherwise our shot selection was poor. Now, again, we did get to the basket with frequency and drew a lot of fouls...and that's good. Free throws were 11-21 1st half bad 9-10 2nd half good. Can't be twice as bad as good though.

    For all the struggles with personnel, and I DO get it, rebounding is effort and you can't get beat by TEN in a half. We barely cut into that in the 2nd half. Obviously this is a major issue going forward, regardless if QB is back. We MUST do better on the boards because bigger, stronger, longer, faster teams occupy basically every spot on the schedule from here on out.


    I think I have a fairly decent understanding of what works and what doesn't work in the game of basketball. Matej, like all players, has his strengths and weaknesses. Why do we keep throwing him the ball 13 feet in the corner when he's posting? I get he hasn't learned that post defense in the collegiate game is a war. He'll get better, BUT, if you are a post man who can't dribble effectively (and that's almost every post man) and you get the ball that far from the basket, the passer must move to an open area to receive a pass, the post needs to pass out of the post and then "re-post" deeper into the paint or closer to the basket. It's simple. And this is NOT all Matej's fault, in fact it may be almost none of his fault. Don't give him the ball there in the first place. Teach it to him. I KNOW Quincy Acy knows better than that. I hope this gets better, fast. And the really frustrating thing about this is Matej is an excellent passer out of the post. We aren't moving and cutting enough to give him options. He WILL find open players. He's very skilled there. He's looked at several behind the back bounce passes to where guys could be cutting to the basket but it's just not quite there. A guy can't pass you the ball if you aren't getting open.

    Now, staying on Matej, he's got to be stronger with and without the ball. He's getting stripped too frequently. He's not bodying well enough. Improvement has to be made there. But he has excellent court awareness and he's not the least mobile player ever, by a long shot. His doubles are pretty darned good....now we need to do better turning those doubles into turnovers, but we're close and he's doing a darned good job in understanding when to recover and for the most part, getting to his recovery spot in good shape. For a kid this new to the game, I think he's doing a fantastic job there. Plenty to work with and work on. BUT he needs help.

    I don't disagree with ShockRef very often, if at all, mostly because doing so would mean I'm wrong...but I was watching a different Joy last night. Maybe it was just that he was out of sorts a bit being thrust into that spot, idk, but he seemed lost and slow and indecisive when he was in. I'm willing to admit I misjudged here, but he didn't seem like a guy we could count on a bunch going forward, even though we probably HAVE to count on him somewhere. He did go get the ball on the boards, and that was something we desperately needed, so there's that.

    Speaking of Coach Acy, he was INTO it during the game. Love that passion! And the crowd makes a difference. I just wish there were more of us.

    It was great to see PJ in the house. LOVE seeing alumni successful. One of my favorites and was always so kind and cordial to me. Makes my heart swell knowing he's doing good and what he loves to do.

    I wish I had paid attention, but I didn't learn until after the game that former assistant coach Rick Callahan was part of the Monmouth staff as GM for men's basketball. I assume he was there last night, and I'm really saddened I missed the chance to say hi and catch up a bit. I always enjoyed the time I spent with Coach those 3 years he was here. That made me sad.

    This team has been fun to watch so far, at least prior to last night. And I really like the young men on the team, as to who they are and how they handle themselves.....I'm willing to forget last night as a one off. But if we don't get healthy, it doesn't matter. No idea what to expect Friday in KC but it doesn't feel good.


    I believe we are who we are, and mostly I'm ok with that, but I need some of what Quincy Acy has to rub off onto Coach Mills. I need some of that fire.


    We are HOSED next year. And if Corey has a good year and is picked off in Free Agency (and admit it, that's 50/50 at best for us) then we go into next season with Zion Pipkin (who apparently isn't going to play this year for reasons I can't articulate), TJ Williams (who is hurt now and might not play all season), Yanis and Joy. That's not a D1 team. That's not close to a D1 team, much less a competitive D1 team. I can't believe I'm saying this, but this is a make or break year. If we aren't successful this season, we better try again because it's a complete reboot anyway.


    The ENTIRE PROGRAM right now needs a good dose of "want to"....from the players, to the coaches, staff AND the fans. A bit too much complacency for my taste.
    Last edited by WuDrWu; 4 weeks ago.

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    • I can only think that our coaching staff thought we had superior athletes and can just drive to the cup and an and score every time. We would kill them on the boards due to our superior abilities and get any putbacks that didn’t fall. I can only imagine this as the plan since we never waivered from it. Washington even said after the game that Mills was calm at halftime and told them to just settle down and execute the plan. We came out 2nd half and continued to do the same thing. The layups were a little less wild 2nd half but it was the same offense. Not a good sign.

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      • I guess if you are depleted and playing bad and have to scrap to survive, you want to do it in a game that you can still win. Thank goodness we found a way to win, and hopefully there aren't that many more "off" games like that ahead of us. Until we are healthy, we could be in trouble though. We need Ballard and RDIII badly. And could really use Meeks for that matter.
        Kung Wu say, man who read woman like book, prefer braille!

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        • The understatement of the day…

          "You Just Want to Slap The #### Outta Some People"

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          • No idea why it posted the same message 2 times. Sorry!

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            • Much of this criticism is warranted but I try to keep things in perspective. Every team and every coach have a team that plays like this occasionally.

              I'm sure most of you remember the GM team in 2013 losing to Evansville at home 56-59, five game before they started the Final 4 run. I was thoroughly disgusted with that team that day. Their effort was poor, and they played like they were too good to be there, and they were playing for a championship.

              It happens​
              Last edited by Topshock; 4 weeks ago.

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              • Woke up this morning pissed off after what I watched last night. I hope the players and coaching staff feel the same.

                Let's see some fire on Friday against Saint Louis - we all know WSU is capable of better than what they showed yesterday.

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                • Originally posted by Topshock View Post
                  Much of this criticism is warranted but I try to keep things in perspective. Every team and every coach have a team that plays like this occasionally.

                  I'm sure most of you remember the GM team in 2013 losing to Evansville at home 56-59, five game before they started the Final 4 run. I was thoroughly degusted with that team that day. Their effort was poor, and they played like they were too good to be there, and they were playing for a championship.

                  It happens​
                  I was going to post something similar… , it happens.
                  Last edited by WstateU; 4 weeks ago.
                  "You Just Want to Slap The #### Outta Some People"

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                  • Originally posted by ShockerFever View Post

                    That was one of the worst "efforts" I've seen from top to bottom, from floor to bench, from players to coaching I've seen in a long, long time.
                    It hasn't been that long since you've seen that, or have you forgotten the IB days? That was just about every game prior to Mills.
                    Infinity Art Glass - Fantastic local artist and Shocker fan
                    RIP Guy Always A Shocker
                    Carpenter Place - A blessing to many young girls/women
                    ICT S.O.S - Great local cause fighting against human trafficking
                    Wartick Insurance Agency - Saved me money with more coverage.
                    Save Shocker Sports - A rallying cry

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                    • Pretty losses sicken me. So glad we won the game last night that had multiple red flags of concern. A loss last night would have been a SN unpleasant dumpster fire. A win Friday would be a refresh moment for FSF and many others me thinks.

                      Just win Shocks and correct the snags along the Shocker long journey that remain. We have too many injuries right now and am hoping that improves.
                      Shocker basketball will forever be my favorite team in all of sports.

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                      • Originally posted by SubGod22 View Post

                        It hasn't been that long since you've seen that, or have you forgotten the IB days? That was just about every game prior to Mills.
                        I’d like to think last night was an outlier and the road game at Western Kentucky was close to normal.

                        "You Just Want to Slap The #### Outta Some People"

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                        • Originally posted by WstateU View Post
                          The understatement of the day…

                          I have nothing to say about the game itself. It was an embarrassment to the program and anyone in attendance. And I certainly would not have posted a picture from the locker room as a team that "we got the job done." That in and of itself is an L.

                          I'm really hoping it was an anomaly. But that performance was a stain on this program. And it starts at the top; coaching, scouting, preparation, and recruiting. Something just doesn't feel right after a game like that. Turgeon had the balls to grab a microphone after his team didn't perform as expected and give the fans something they needed to hear. Both he and Marshall would let the players know during a game when they f*cked up. I don't know, it just may not be a right fit, a community who needs (used to anyway) basketball to feel connected to the University, and a coach who comes across as an even more mild mannered Clark Kent. One thing is certain, games like that will not drive fans back into the arena to watch a game.

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                          • Originally posted by JVShocker View Post

                            I have nothing to say about the game itself. It was an embarrassment to the program and anyone in attendance. And I certainly would not have posted a picture from the locker room as a team that "we got the job done." That in and of itself is an L.

                            I'm really hoping it was an anomaly. But that performance was a stain on this program. And it starts at the top; coaching, scouting, preparation, and recruiting. Something just doesn't feel right after a game like that. Turgeon had the balls to grab a microphone after his team didn't perform as expected and give the fans something they needed to hear. Both he and Marshall would let the players know during a game when they f*cked up. I don't know, it just may not be a right fit, a community who needs (used to anyway) basketball to feel connected to the University, and a coach who comes across as an even more mild mannered Clark Kent. One thing is certain, games like that will not drive fans back into the arena to watch a game.
                            I've said many times that coaches like Mills, or Brown for that matter, absolutely have to win especially here in Wichita. They do little to inspire or engage fans outside of the arena and honestly don't do much of that inside the arena either. There's nothing inherently wrong with being mild mannered and more reserved. Hell, I'm much the same way in life. But this is a blue collar community that has a deep connection to Wichita State and Shocker basketball and I think as a whole we are drawn to the grit and hard-nosed basketball we've seen in the past. And those are often the times we've seen success too. I think there's a reason that even though some coaches lost early, you could see the culture they were building and could relate to it on some level and could see where it was heading. Those teams and coaches were easy to rally behind and support even when they were struggling to get W's. The coaches inspired us with their passion and emotion.

                            Mills, for better or worse, isn't that. His teams don't seem to have that same chip on their shoulders and junkyard dog mentality. He comes off as very passive and way too calm, especially considering his teams aren't just going out there and dominating and beating the **** out of teams that they should. I know there are different styles and they can all be successful, but if you want fans to return quicker, you have to give them something, or someone, they can embrace. Part of this problem is the new normal of people jumping ship way too often. We as fans can't build the connections with players that we used to. It's hard to develop any kind of connection to guys who are here for one year and one year only. You can't really identify with them. And based on Mills personality, he's also hard to embrace in the same way as some previous coaches have been embraced. He seems like a nice guy, but that's not going to excite people in and of itself.

                            Maybe Acy needs to be more front and center off the court. I've seen people talk about him having that fire and passion and maybe he could be a guy that could do more media or something to bring some of that to the public. He's not the head guy, but seeing someone on the bench with that kind of attitude could do wonders. Now, I have no idea how he is with dealing with the public or media but you'd think with his experience he's be alright. So maybe the right hand man (so to speak) of Mills could be that public face that could inspire a little more from the community. Maybe I'm full of ****.

                            But I agree that Mills is too much like Brown in demeanor that it bothers me a little bit.
                            Infinity Art Glass - Fantastic local artist and Shocker fan
                            RIP Guy Always A Shocker
                            Carpenter Place - A blessing to many young girls/women
                            ICT S.O.S - Great local cause fighting against human trafficking
                            Wartick Insurance Agency - Saved me money with more coverage.
                            Save Shocker Sports - A rallying cry

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                            • I always thought Griffin was the guy we should’ve gone for. He seemed to have that fire and did really well with the Bucks before he got forced out.

                              I’m not one to care if our coach is yelling and screaming and shaking his watch on the court. But get the job done, and get the wins. There’s something even more scary about a calm man who wins than a loud one.

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                              • The way some of you are talking on here you would’ve thought we lost, RELAX, BREATH, we were without our starting center, RD went out early with a hand injury in the 1st half and also I think I heard Mike Kennedy say one of their top scorers were back from an injury, the team is 4-0, had Brown been coaching that game last night you think he would’ve pulled out a win? Step away from the cliff, season just started.
                                Hows my post? send me feedback at 1-800-f$%k-off

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